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 Post subject: Independence
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2014, 18:14 
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Has no REAL life! (3493)
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This isn't a rant or anything, it's just that some people have asked me in mumble/steam about the whole Scottish independence thing and what I think about it - I'm not good at answering that kind of thing off the top of my head so I'm gonna write it out here. Hopefully it'll interest some of you :5:

Here's the background. In Britain there are traditionally three main parties: Labour on the left, Conservatives (a.k.a the Tories) on the right and the Liberal Democrats (Lib Dems) somewhere in the middle. Let's rewind to the 80s, when Margaret Thatcher of the Conservatives was Prime Minister. In what I'll admit is an oversimplified version of events, the Tories introduced the ill-advised poll tax - a tax toward which everyone paid the same amount of money, making it unfair to the working class - and decided to give it a trial run in Scotland before rolling out across the UK. Scotland, which has almost always been more left-leaning than England, wanted Thatcher's head on a plate for this. Tory support has never been the same since. In fact, right now there is only one elected Tory candidate across the whole of Scotland, despite them being in power in the UK.

Fast forward to more recent times and Labour continued to receive more or less popular support in Scotland, with the Lib Dems getting elected in the far north, Highlands/Islands areas. But then the big economic crash happened, the entire world (more or less) went into recession and shit hit the fan. As Labour were in power at the time they got the blame, which personally I think is a bit unfair given that this was an unprecedented, worldwide event, but there y'go. The result is that Scottish people aren't voting Labour and they aren't voting Tory either.

So that leaves the Lib Dems... sort of. The thing with the Lib Dems is that they'd always been the least popular of the three big parties. Off the top of my head I don't think they've ever been in power outside of the current coalition government. Voting for them has historically been a bit of a pointless vote.

Alright then, the Tories hate Scotland, Gordon Brown has personally ruined the economy and it turns out the Lib Dems are mythical creatures.* What's the alternative? The alternative is the SNP - the Scottish National Party.

*Sarcasm intentional :ugly:

Thing is, I think voting SNP has generally been a pretty good idea, even without process of elimination. When you're voting for a local representative you want a person who's going to fight for local causes, and to give them their due our local SNP reps have generally been alright at that. When you're best positioned to appeal to people at a more local level you're going to get the local vote, and that's what happened right across Scotland. And so the SNP became the majority power in the Scottish Parliament.

But the thing is, one of the key goals of the SNP was to hold a referendum on Scottish independence. And so they did. And this is my main problem with the whole independence thing: we didn't elect them because we wanted to have the independence conversation - we elected them because they were the best alternative to the 3 main parties - and we almost certainly wouldn't even be thinking about independence if the SNP weren't in power. Continuing devolution of powers from Westminster to Scotland had been working well, and I don't see why it won't continue to do so in the future if the 'no' vote goes through. I firmly believe that there is no need or appetite for any more drastic change than this. And independence is a really, really, *reeeaaallllllyyy* fucking drastic change.

There's more to it than that, I might get into it if there's any interest in this thread, but this post is already very long and that both gives you some background and covers the the biggest reason why I think independence is a bad idea.

Why, then, are so many people voting yes? I've noticed that a lot of 'yes' voters I've talked to are people who desperately want a change in their life. Maybe they're struggling financially, or they're from a shitty neighbourhood, or something like that. And then suddenly, independence is this big, glamorous idea that promises to solve all their problems. I think it's very easy to underestimate the destabilising effects of independence and overestimate the improvements it claims to bring when you're in a crappy situation.

There are loads of other reasons but from the conversations I've had I'm guessing that's the biggest one. I could also talk about suspicions of people not bothering to engage with politics the rest of the time and just assuming the system is broken, and that some Scottish people (morons) just plain hate the English, but then that's partly true and, if I was being honest with myself, partly me being patronising.

So! That's independence as I see it. Basically it's a bad idea and doesn't have anything to do Mel Gibson. For the record, I wear kilts to weddings and similar formal occasions, I memorised Burns's "A Man's A Man For A' That" and then forgot it like a week later, I thought Braveheart was shit and I tried to watch Highlander but couldn't get past how 70s it was. AND I fucking love haggis. Seriously, you should try haggis from a proper butcher if you haven't before, shit's awesome :26

tl;dr haggis

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2014, 18:57 
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That's an interesting read mate!

I am really curious to the results tomorrow morning!


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2014, 20:23 
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Has no REAL life! (3714)
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Hit the nail on the head man. I do worry about the fallout this will cause though, even if they vote to stay. I suppose it's not too different from UKIP trying to get us out of the EU and the way they found their votes.

Kilts and haggis you glorious Scottish bastard! :57


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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2014, 20:37 
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[SpA]JuncoPartner wrote:
Hit the nail on the head man. I do worry about the fallout this will cause though, even if they vote to stay. I suppose it's not too different from UKIP trying to get us out of the EU and the way they found their votes.

Kilts and haggis you glorious Scottish bastard! :57
That's the funny thing for us 'Europeans', the Scottish try to do to "you" what "you" try to do to "us". I like it how the British government is going full-retard in attempt to keep the Scots in the UK. :mrgreen:


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2014, 06:38 
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Has no REAL life! (3493)
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It's gonna be a no. Most telling statistic I've heard from the night - there's a strong correlation between votes for independence and areas of high unemployment; people voted yes because they're desperate and think we've got nothing to lose. Fact is we've got a hell of a lot to lose. Change will come, like it was always going to, but we're not chopping off a limb to scratch an itch.

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cz 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2014, 08:21 
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Finally I know how it actually is! Thanks :)


PS: I read it in your voice :mrgreen:

And the results are:
Image

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2014, 08:55 
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Well, they had their chance, and they didn't take it.

It would have been interesting to see how this would have played out if yes had won!


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de 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2014, 09:25 
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Has no REAL life! (1669)
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RIP scottish independence.

Now we will never get bavarian independence. :ugly:


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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2014, 10:57 
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SpA Fookah (4459)
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Next match: British independence?

Leave it up to the brits to be more chauvinistic then the french :P

I say we pull the plug and let the island sink, or cut it's tether, let it drift of to the Turks and Caicos, to Cockburn Town :mrgreen: , finally good weather for the brits :4

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fi 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2014, 11:05 
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Has no REAL life! (1690)
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Just evacuate our operatives first. Can't sink the island with them atop it.

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be 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2014, 16:03 
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Has no REAL life! (1086)
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Tuned in to BBC on the television this morning to see the results. I'm happy it turned out to be "no" for you.

Also...
[SpA]OndraSter wrote:
Finally I know how it actually is! Thanks :)


PS: I read it in your voice :mrgreen:

And the results are:
Image
I think nobody noticed the picture :lol:

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us 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2014, 16:27 
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Has no REAL life! (1700)
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Found this video. Thoughts?


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2014, 16:40 
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Can't watch it right now, but I've seen that picture that was circulating of the yes and no votes all sitting in a pile on the same tible. Those hadn't been sorted into yes/no piles, they were ballots waiting to be counted. People on facebook are stupid, but holy shit, some of the responses I've seen to that make it sound like we're a third world military dictatorship >_>

Speaking of facebook and twitter... it's grim out there. A not insignificant number of people legitimately think that we've condemned the next few generations to poverty and slavery, and that no voters are evil shits who don't care for the sufferring of their fellow human beings as long as they have money in their pockets. And I'm not exaggerating. NIGGA PLEASE. :20

Sorry guys, I do think it's a good result, I'm just tired after staying up all night and annoyed by some of the complete idiocy and bullheadedness I've seen from the fallout (on both sides but mostly the yes side cos they've always been much more vocal). I won't clog up the thread with ranting any more.

---

edit: alright, one more thing. Know what I said about powers being devolved to the Scottish parliament? How this has been going since the Scottish parliament has been in existence, was always going to happen and forever will happen? Now yes voters are like "Oh man, don't hold your breath if Westminster doesn't give us these so-called new powers, can't trust those English politicians!" [Edit 2: there was a rant about them here but I've decided to take it out cos it was dumb, but basically, when people are ignorant that are constantly being devolved to the Scottish parliament then they have no right to be suspicious that further powers won't be devolved]

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2014, 20:19 
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Has no REAL life! (1690)
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I think my brain cells may have taken a hit from watching that video. Jesus tittyfuckin' Christ.

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de 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2014, 20:27 
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Geek (630)
I have no clue if it would have been good or bad if scotland would be independent, but for some reason i was hoping they would vote "yes"
Cannot even really explain why... Have been there several times and love scotland as far as a Tourist can say that :) Especially Edinburgh is the loveliest town i ever visited,as far as a tourist can say that :wink:

Maybe i was hoping for a "Yes" because i dislike the EU and always hope for less EU and a little bit more independence for Germany again. Tranfered that then into the Scotland vote.


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be 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2014, 23:03 
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[SpA]Dunken wrote:
I have no clue if it would have been good or bad if scotland would be independent, but for some reason i was hoping they would vote "yes"
Cannot even really explain why... Have been there several times and love scotland as far as a Tourist can say that :) Especially Edinburgh is the loveliest town i ever visited,as far as a tourist can say that :wink:

Maybe i was hoping for a "Yes" because i dislike the EU and always hope for less EU and a little bit more independence for Germany again. Tranfered that then into the Scotland vote.
Oh no, you're not coming in on me from behind again... :oops:

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2014, 15:00 
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[SpA]OndraSter wrote:
Finally I know how it actually is! Thanks :)


PS: I read it in your voice :mrgreen:

And the results are:
Image
havent read all, but how can there be 110% votes?

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2014, 16:27 
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Has no REAL life! (3493)
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That's the joke - CNN made a mistake :ugly:

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ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: till you're senseless


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be 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2014, 17:29 
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[SpA]Cpt.Awesome wrote:
[SpA]OndraSter wrote:
Finally I know how it actually is! Thanks :)


PS: I read it in your voice :mrgreen:

And the results are:
Image
havent read all, but how can there be 110% votes?
Somebody else has noticed! Wooo :4

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us 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2014, 23:32 
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[SpA]heldplayer wrote:
[SpA]Cpt.Awesome wrote:

havent read all, but how can there be 110% votes?
Somebody else has noticed! Wooo :4
I noticed but just didn't bother to say anything :P

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2014, 22:04 
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In my opinion they got it wrong,

Scotland should not have been voting from independence from the uk, it should have been a uk wide vote - voting London out of the uk

I think London has nothing in common with the rest of the country, and it would make a successful country on its own. and the uk would be better off without its taint.

this sounds like i don't like London. i do, i just think it would be better if it was cut out like the bleeding cancer it is.

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2014, 23:09 
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[SpA]uvpurple wrote:
In my opinion they got it wrong,

Scotland should not have been voting from independence from the uk, it should have been a uk wide vote - voting London out of the uk

I think London has nothing in common with the rest of the country, and it would make a successful country on its own. and the uk would be better off without its taint.

this sounds like i don't like London. i do, i just think it would be better if it was cut out like the bleeding cancer it is.
REVOLT!!!!! :4 :70 :rock: :93 :-11


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dk 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2014, 02:02 
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[SpA]uvpurple wrote:
In my opinion they got it wrong,

Scotland should not have been voting from independence from the uk, it should have been a uk wide vote - voting London out of the uk

I think London has nothing in common with the rest of the country, and it would make a successful country on its own. and the uk would be better off without its taint.

this sounds like i don't like London. i do, i just think it would be better if it was cut out like the bleeding cancer it is.
As a Londoner, this makes me sad :(

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2014, 11:32 
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SpA Fookah (4459)
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I vote for civil war!

(Saint, you buy chips? I'll buy some weed, let's watch some entertainment on the news)

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2014, 13:09 
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[SpA]Bucky wrote:
I vote for civil war!

(Saint, you buy chips? I'll buy some weed, let's watch some entertainment on the news)
Yay, live war like the invasion in Iraq we've watched on TV in the middle of the night! :4


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2014, 13:30 
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Personally I think that Scotland should be part of the UK, and instead of the UK joining the EU, the EU should join us and we might aswell just call the UK and the EU England actually. Eventually as London spills out of it's city limits as museums and narrow houses begin to stretch across the globe, England will become London. Starbucks will then marry London with the Americas and coffee franchises will conquer the remaining continents. Earth will be renamed to London and everything by law will have to smell bad, and all the buses and phone boxes must be painted red.


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dk 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2014, 14:05 
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[SpA]JuncoPartner wrote:
Personally I think that Scotland should be part of the UK, and instead of the UK joining the EU, the EU should join us and we might aswell just call the UK and the EU England actually. Eventually as London spills out of it's city limits as museums and narrow houses begin to stretch across the globe, England will become London. Starbucks will then marry London with the Americas and coffee franchises will conquer the remaining continents. Earth will be renamed to London and everything by law will have to smell bad, and all the buses and phone boxes must be painted red.
Paradise :ugly: :mrgreen:

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2014, 14:06 
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SpA Fookah (4459)
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Uhmmmm,

are you aware you guys have been part of the EU for like ages already?

But I'm happy with UK going for independence from EU, no problems there, I doubt we would notice any change in all of europe :18

Maybe your internet will finally be better then as we've been holding you back with our high bandwidth lines :twisted:
(cigarettes that don't taste like ass, roads without holes (except belgium), acceptable pricing on dope, non over crowded prisons)
:5:

How about my plan of cutting the tether and letting you guys drift off to the Turks and the Caicos? Or you don't like good weather and love pale skin :mrgreen: :ugly: :ba: :rage: :17 :49 :59 :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2014, 14:30 
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Has no REAL life! (3714)
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Today I learnt Bucky does not like the Brits very much :cry:

Then again I don't think the British like British people either.


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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Independence
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2014, 00:37 
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SpA Fookah (4459)
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I like wankin :lol:

And i like you guys too :P

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