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 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 22 Aug 2011, 15:20 
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Pretty useless (69)
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True. But still. I'd like to see u try and get >200 points! ( on the no-critz server ofc =p ) :ugly:


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de 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 22 Aug 2011, 21:15 
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is Wonder Woman (5950)
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Unfortunately class limit's will not completely solve unbalancing of teams. Limiting more classes will just end up with restricting more people from playing certain classes. Personally I am not a fan of class limits, stating the facts in-game that 4 snipers and 4 spies will not suffice has always worked for me. If the team gets annoyed that they are losing then it usually works to point out the weaknesses in their class choices.

Nevertheless, this thread was erected (waits for the sniggers) to ask the community on their thoughts of whether we should have class limits or not. The majority of you voted yes. The next step was to ask which classes you would like to limit and as there was not much feedback, a meeting was called and a decision was made to limit the engy's on all ctf maps.

... Just because you can limit a game with certain aspects doesn't mean that you have to use it. Some of what has been posted on this thread (and other threads) has been how a certain obstacle was handled by working together and concurring the challenge, and what comes to mind is team work. Which leads me to the name of the game TeamFortress 2. Which leads me to the first sentence that I typed.

Conclusion:
Playing as a team, working as a team, communicating as a team is how you could play TeamFortress 2. If that was the case, then surely there would be no need for class limits. Granted there are those that are new to the game, but weren't you once?

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 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 22 Aug 2011, 21:54 
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Has no REAL life! (3714)
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Very difficult to communiticate with new players, I suspect that sometimes they are unable to read english or stuggle in doing so. Teamwork can just be thrown out the window, it can turn to lone fortress 2. I think a class limit of 3 on the 'problem' classes would be really lenient, and not at all restrictive. Problem classes being engie, sniper, spy, heavy. It's not just me this happens to, honestly, I see it nark off a few people, but when I pick a class that there's none or only 2 of, it's very unfair to be forced out of it by someone with no interest in teamwork, or what classes the team needs or doesn't need, who see's there's already 3 spies, or snipers, and then picks that class anyway to make 4. Because while they don't care, you do, so you are pushed out of the class you want to play.

That, and teams being crazy unbalanced simply because of poor class choices, is why I really insist there's a limit. Sorry if that post was meant to put the class limit thing to bed :P but it's a problem, may not affect everyone, though it's not just my personal woes, it does annoy a lot of people, from regulars, to players new to the server.


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de 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 22 Aug 2011, 21:56 
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is Wonder Woman (5950)
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No not at all, that post was not intended to put this thread to bed. The more feedback, the more convincement ^^

...carry on :5:

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 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 22 Aug 2011, 22:47 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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Good points junco.

It is slightly upsetting sometimes when you don't get to play the class you feel like playing because 3 other people are playing that class.

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-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 10:21 
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Pretty useless (69)
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[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:
Good points junco.

It is slightly upsetting sometimes when you don't get to play the class you feel like playing because 3 other people are playing that class.
And being absolutely terrible at it!! :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 10:54 
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CAST MASTER (481)
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No one can argue with 4 heavies and 4 Medics though, and i'm surprised theres no limit on Medics, get 4 good Medics and a team is nearly unstoppable. Think of a heavy with 4 Medics attached to him, although that would never really happen because no one plays Medic. Still I think people are over looking the Medic becasue he is under played, but the most game changing class there is. One Medic can change then flow of battles in a way no other class can, just think of 4 of them partnered with a good player.

Case in point me and pinky riped a team apart with a Demo/Medic Kritz combo, although we lost the match i came out with around 85 assists. Please dont forget that the Medic, although the class that requires the most team work, can still "unbalance" the game in large numbers, and it can go ether way, someone playing a Medic takes away an attacking class, but that Medic can keep an entire team alive. Of course I'm only really talking about good Medics, and not the ones that heal a heavy and stare at a spy on fire next to them screaming for help, watching his felsh slowly fuse with his suit. >.<

Damn Medics.

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 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 11:02 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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nMd! wrote:
[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:
Good points junco.

It is slightly upsetting sometimes when you don't get to play the class you feel like playing because 3 other people are playing that class.
And being absolutely terrible at it!! :evil:
That is the most depressing part lol. Our team had 3 snipers last night on attack, so I changed to a frontline role to push the kart, and then some fucker decides to play sniper instead of me... what's the point? I spend most of my games now pressing Tab and telling people to change to classes we actually need.

_________________
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-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 11:05 
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Pretty useless (69)
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[SpA]ZombieStalin wrote:
No one can argue with 4 heavies and 4 Medics though, and i'm surprised theres no limit on Medics, get 4 good Medics and a team is nearly unstoppable. Think of a heavy with 4 Medics attached to him, although that would never really happen because no one plays Medic. Still I think people are over looking the Medic becasue he is under played, but the most game changing class there is. One Medic can change then flow of battles in a way no other class can, just think of 4 of them partnered with a good player.

Case in point me and pinky riped a team apart with a Demo/Medic Kritz combo, although we lost the match i came out with around 85 assists. Please dont forget that the Medic, although the class that requires the most team work, can still "unbalance" the game in large numbers, and it can go ether way, someone playing a Medic takes away an attacking class, but that Medic can keep an entire team alive. Of course I'm only really talking about good Medics, and not the ones that heal a heavy and stare at a spy on fire next to them screaming for help, watching his felsh slowly fuse with his suit. >.<

Damn Medics.
The problem with playing medic nowadays is that a lot of people are playing classes that arent "good" to heal as a medic. I mean healing a scout isnt really beneficial, neither is healing a sniper, engie or spy. And since those are the classes that are played most lately.... Also its not really satisfying to get killed everytime when you're at like 85% ubercharge and you think the soldier you are healing will protect u from an incoming pyro, but no, he just keeps on walking straight a head without even noticing that you're getting killed.


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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 11:08 
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Pretty useless (69)
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[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:
nMd! wrote:

And being absolutely terrible at it!! :evil:
That is the most depressing part lol. Our team had 3 snipers last night on attack, so I changed to a frontline role to push the kart, and then some fucker decides to play sniper instead of me... what's the point? I spend most of my games now pressing Tab and telling people to change to classes we actually need.

Yeah indeed.. Probably every round you have to tell them in warmup mode that it's impossible to win with 4 engies and 3 snipers on offense. But most of the time u get 0 reaction or just "Omg, are you playing to win or something?!" I mean SERIOUSLY if you're not playing to win, go play the sims :( :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 11:14 
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CAST MASTER (481)
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Thats why i said a good medic combo ^^, with someone who knows how to protect their pocket and what not. Besides i find medic the most rewarding class in the game :D because i'm obviously a pansy :P

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 11:22 
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Pretty useless (69)
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[SpA]ZombieStalin wrote:
Besides i find medic the most rewarding class in the game :D because i'm obviously a pansy :P
Well for the new players it's not really rewarding, because they find it boring. Untill you show them, that with a decent pocket u can change a lot in the game and get many points ( which is mainly their focus, muchos points.)Like last night, I was playing with a buddy off mine (who is also a f2p) he wanted to play spy with allready 3 spies in the game, so I told him to go medic because obv 4 spies is useless.. then he was like "Naaah man medic is so boring, you cant do anything" But after winning like 3 rounds in a row, without him dying, an constantly übercharging ( and getting muchos points :/ ) he now likes it.. I guess they just have to get used to it :5:


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 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 11:29 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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Medic is an awesome class, especially if you know how to use him properly and have game awareness. Like using your uber to save team mates and not just for pushes. Like ubering the whole team when a strong pyro rushes everyone, or doing an 8 person cart uber (kart still moves but you protect everyone from spam).

The medic should heal everyone but remember that they are there to coordinate attacks and help the MVP's make ground and not just stand in the back.

Also, people who uber/kritz tease are dicks.

A good hat is also a must :D

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 11:33 
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Pretty useless (69)
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Yeah game-awareness is critical! you have to know exactly when to push, or to retreat. Same for a heavy, most important thing is to know when you're beat, or when you've got the drop on some1 (or even a few people ).

*edit: That reminds me, wtb medic hat :ugly: *


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ro 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 12:21 
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Has no REAL life! (3017)
We're getting a bit sidetracked here I think as there is a fine line between skill and team composition. The skill level difference is so huge nowdays that any class combo will reap the newbies apart. I've done it with kritz medic+revolver spy and I've seen melee ubering medics do it (think it was elefanten and garm).

Now, what a good medic does is it increases everyone's skill by keeping them topped up on health: more health means more room for missed shots. What a good medic cannot do is steamroll alone, when he has no support: a team of spies, snipers and engies will fail regardless of how good the medic is. It's one of the reasons I rarely play medic nowdays, as opposed to some time ago when it was pretty much the only class I ever played.

This is where the class limiter kicks in: gently force a team to have some diversity in it, therefore providing a better fighting chance.

Anyway, one thing's for sure: SpA vs. Comm matches are not going to happen again, not in the near future.

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 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 13:54 
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Has no REAL life! (3714)
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I can't seem to get into medic, I'm too clumbsy and distracted, and everyone tries to shoot at me while my patient rocket/sticky jumps off somewhere :(


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 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 16:01 
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The one and only (619)
Could we maybe have a re-vote as people may have changed their minds, I certainly have.


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 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 16:10 
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Has no REAL life! (1254)
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Important Update

The vote counter has been reset as the votes became obsolete since the game has changed so much (most votes were before free to play, for example)

Please vote again so we can get a better view of the current oppinions

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nl 
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 16:23 
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I voted no. Limiting classes is not the option. Stimulation to change is the way to go.


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nl 
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 16:34 
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Pretty useless (69)
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Sorry Saint. But I still voted YES to class limits, but ideally (correct spelling?) I want to vote class limit on specific chars. ( engie, sniper, spy, heavy )


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be 
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 16:47 
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Has no REAL life! (1254)
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Also voted no.

I'm not too keen on restricting our players' options. Usually when the team make-up is bad that team will start to lose.
Generally, when this happens, people will switch classes if asked, especially if they're made to realise that it's the team composition that's making them lose.
Also, with class limits you can have two horrible snipers and two terrible spies, while regulars will be forced to play a class they might be less skilled at.
By enforcing these restrictions we'll punish our regulars by restricting their class choices (regulars tend to switch class if needed, but not even giving them all options seems very harsh) and chase away newcomers. We need to teach people about team composition so they won't just stick to their class as soon as they can play it.

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nl 
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 17:29 
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[SpA]MrOrange wrote:
Also voted no.

By enforcing these restrictions we'll punish our regulars by restricting their class choices (regulars tend to switch class if needed, but not even giving them all options seems very harsh).
Soo.. maybe just enforce it on the vanilla servers ? :shock:


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PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 17:31 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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Voted yes, but limits are only really needed for the support classes like sniper, engineer, spy and in addition the heavy, as they seem to be the ones which cause the most issue.

A limit of three on those classes hits the balance of not being too restrictive but also causes less grief, as no one likes to keep telling their team that there class choices are not sensible.

Also, as a counter point to educating new players; they will learn the game and the maps much better by playing more active front-line classes (demo, solly, medic, scout etc), which I don't feel need much in the way of restrictions (the current limit of 4 for the remaining classes is fine).

As it has been done in the past, a limit of 1 Engy per team on CTF game modes is still recommended as it allows people to still be able to capture the intel, but also means scouts don't just completely take advantage.


EDIT: The No Crits server could be subject to more stringent class restrictions.

_________________
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-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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nl 
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 17:36 
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nMd! wrote:
[SpA]MrOrange wrote:
Also voted no.

By enforcing these restrictions we'll punish our regulars by restricting their class choices (regulars tend to switch class if needed, but not even giving them all options seems very harsh).
Soo.. maybe just enforce it on the vanilla servers ? :shock:
Because... that's not where our regulars are? wut?


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nl 
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 17:46 
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Actually. I'm confused.

I am against classlimits, accept for the engineer on ctf maps (1), and 0 engineers on tc maps (that map plays really well on vanilla without engi's). Other then that, I am against any general class limits on other classes lower then the current 5.


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be 
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 17:50 
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Has no REAL life! (1254)
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A class limit of three doesn't sound all too unreasonable for those classes (I'm not sure about restricting the Heavy, but more on that later).
Although I must say, three spies isn't much better than four (or five, but I've never even seen it come to that on our servers). I'd still urge at least one of the spies to reconsider his choice of class.

I don't get the amount of complaints about the Heavy (with a Medic) being such an unstoppable force. If your team can't handle a Heavy/Medic combo, you're handling it wrong.
People need to remind themselves that they're not the only person in a team. If you're alone and see a Heavy/Medic pair, run back to get some back up from teammates.
I've been frustrated with Heavies as well, but as far as I remember they were equally as hard to deal with throughout the history of TF2. Why is it that only now people start complaining?
A team with 4/5 Heavies doesn't perform as well as a team that had their five Heavies switch to, say, 2 Heavies, 2 Soldiers and a Demo.
Anyway, most of my post is about the Heavy balancing, which shouldn't be discussed in large here, but I'm just saying that it's not a class that needs limiting.

Also, NmD, there aren't any specific choices in the poll, so feel free to say why you'd like certain classes restricted in a response. That's what this topic is for :mrgreen: .

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PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 18:04 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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we have Priest's Raaaaage thread for the heavy discussion ^^

I'm not to bothered about the heavy tbh, 4 heavies just means 4 easy head shots :mrgreen: But i thought I'd put that in my post because of the feedback in other threads. The other three are more important in regards to class limits. 3 Spies is better than 4 though, i'd rather have a fourth of my team being useless rather than a third :)

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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nl 
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 18:34 
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[SpA]SaintK wrote:
nMd! wrote:

Soo.. maybe just enforce it on the vanilla servers ? :shock:
Because... that's not where our regulars are? wut?
There are, but then you can choose if u wish to play on a class limited server, or not on the no-critz one. Or am I not making sense? :ugly:


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PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 18:40 
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nMd! wrote:
[SpA]SaintK wrote:

Because... that's not where our regulars are? wut?
There are, but then you can choose if u wish to play on a class limited server, or not on the no-critz one. Or am I not making sense? :ugly:
8)


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PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011, 18:43 
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nMd! wrote:
choose if u wish to play on a class limited server, or not on the no-critz one. Or am I not making sense? :ugly:
This probably needs it's own thread but we should discuss the current situation of the no-crit server in general, because it's essentially dead really? It rarely fills up at evenings, it's not listed in the quickmenu so F2P guys can't find it and even then they are afraid to join because they feel it's limiting their experience (I'm guessing here?), when in reality it should be the flag-ship server of the whole community, filled with the best and brightest :ugly: .

Actually, why isn't it in the quickmenu? And what is the quickmenu haha, Anne mentioned this one day and it stuck with me, but I'm not really knowledgable in the topic.

I don't enjoy whining like this again at all :) It's just... kinda shameful to see the no-crit server withering in its dark empty existence.


Last edited by matude on 23 Aug 2011, 18:53, edited 4 times in total.

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