The TF2 Management has been in discussion about limiting certain classes. We have come to a decision and would like to hear your views and thoughts.

Please vote yes or no, then post your comments here. We'd like to know which classes you wish to limit, by how much and your reasons why you want to limit that class.

At the moment, all classes are set to 5.

Or if you voted no then we would still like to hear your reasons

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Classy is when a woman has everything to flaunt, but chooses not to show it!

Class limits would be a great thing, since the F2P update more and more people are playing TF2, wich is fucking awesome (read free kills)
But being in a 12vs12 server with 4 spies and 4 snipers on your team sucks! I had a few encounters yesterday and earlier this day..and i ragequitted
Limit to 2-3 and players can then buy class immunity for the points they get when playing on SpA and donating.

So Snipers,engi and spies.

I am still very much against limiting the classes. I rather opt for stimulating ways instead of limiting ways. However as I don't see any tools currently offered to come up with a different solution I am tempted to say yes to the poll, under the condition that class limit immunity is being removed from spapoints and admins.

Until Valve or a plugin supports switching to much needed classes (eg a spapoint or item drop boost if you regularly switch to medic, engineer, whatever if needed) I endorse class limits.
I think it should be set to 4 per class and to 1 engineer on CTFs.

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For F2P users this wouldn't matter, but for SpA forum members I have an idea: what if we had a system that would give more spapoints to classes that are less used and less spapoints to classes that are more in use?

For example if there's 4 demomen in the server/team, being a demoman would give you less points per minute. If there's only one medic, being a medic would give more points than being a demoman.

Say you get 1 spapoint per 10 minute playing in the server by default.
If you play a class that's in use by more than 3 other team members, you get the default amount of points.
If you play a class that's used by 2 other people in your team you get 2 points per 10 minutes.
If your class is shared by 1 other team members, you get 3 points.
And if you're the sole representative of your class in team, you get 4 points per 10 minutes.

Or whatever the amount of points, that would make sense if there's usually 2 users of every class in a team.
And maybe even distinguish the points by 3 groups: attack, defend and support classes. So if there are many support classes and only one attack class, it would add another point to the attack one?

I know this sounds pretty complex, but in theory this would be exactly what Saint mentioned: stimulating, not of limiting. But yea, in practice, personally I don't think anybody cares about spapoints that much.

Also, since my idea is quite crazy for a custom plugin, I have to go with yes for class limit: 4.

I think even 4 of the same class can cripple a game, 4 snipers, or 4 spies on attack, 4 heavys on defense, blue sits in spawn while nades and ubers roll in. In my opinion there should be a '3' class limitation all classes except for soldier, and scout.

I mean 5 of any class on one team would be a disaster, but erm is it possible to vary class limits according to the map? Also matude's idea is good, if possible, but I don't think it will mean anything to new players only just joining the server, probably for one time only.

No harm in doing both. I like your idea matude. I'll keep my eyes open for a similar plugin or try and write it myself

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Classy is when a woman has everything to flaunt, but chooses not to show it!

I agree that I would not like to limit the player's experience, but equally, you are limiting the player experience by allowing so many of one game breaking class. What are you limiting I hear you say? Well if you attacking team had 4 spies, 4 snipers and 4 engies you are NOT going to push the kart/cap the point, so you are limiting the players in seeing the whole of a payload map, all the stages of hydro, from even smelling the intel room on tf2; let alone making it to the courtyard.

I suggest limiting Engy, Sniper and Spy to 3 (engy limited to 1 on ctf maps as standard)

Everything else limited to 4.

I don't agree with removing class immunity, but I think there should be an "immunity cap" so +2 slots extra or something - the argument here is, that people who buy immunity, either donate or are regulars and should know better that 5 spies do not help a team to succeed.

By limiting a class you are also forcing players to stop just playing the one class they like or are good at, you make them explore the other classes, try new things, and enjoy the game for a hell of a lot more longer. I used to career sniper, and only player sniper, but last year i started playing scout and soldier and now rock demo, which used to be most hated class, and i was rubbish at it.

Pro Class Limits!

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-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

I played a bit on the Vanilla servers the last days to have an eye on all the newbies... the team setup can sometimes really be frustrating, but talking to the team (somtimes) does help. Forcing the enemy team to rethink their setup is easily done, by just playing the counter class (love burning newbie spies).

One thing I recognized is that people tend to play engineers (and place sentries at "interesting" locations). Problem is that if you have a noob team and the enemy 4 sentries up... you're fucked. It's damn hard to find someone to uber.

I'd def go with the class limit, but I'm undecided about what limit to use. 4 should be fine for most cases, if there are admins looking at the servers. If admins tend to ignore the Vanilla servers, I'd prob go with 3.

Cheers
Banana

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

This is where I am split. People brought this game to play how they want to, and to limit that freedom is not fair. On the other hand though, some of these people don't know how to play and ruin the fun for everyone else. I will vote yes to this for now, and see how it works out, but if your going to limit classes only limit, Spy Engie and Sniper. These three can make a team ether too powerful or too piss poor. the amount it should be is 2 each. There is no need for more then 2 Spys or Snipers, and If theres more then 2 engies it can be a pig to break a defence.

Again matude's idea seems like a nice work around, but this wont affect the influx of un registared users of our PIE. It could lead to people not wanting to use the PIES. If at all possibly place these class limits on No-critz first, at least then you'll get feedback from most of the regulars.

Z.S signing off!

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Gone, but somehow not forgotten.

We do not have the code for the immunity cap, so that's not going to be a realistic option I'm afraid.

Another note I have to make in regard to the class limiter immunity.

If that is enabled, you push someone else out their class if you join a class which is already full using immunity. The first player to die has to chose a different class then what they have been playing. The plugin doesn't look at who joined the class as latest, it will simply push out the first player to die.

Cool, well maybe immunity isn't required anymore, a lot of other servers with class limits don't allow immunity. So maybe it is just something we should ditch.

I'll repeat my point in a more concise way though: either way, limiting classes or not limiting them is still limiting the player's experience. - But if the choice has to be made between them, i'd much rather limit class choice than limit the player from enjoying a fun game or enjoying the whole map and more than just he first stage of goldrush...

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-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

In a way I agree with Zombie and, liberal like I am, I'd even go one step further. The TF2 was created with no limits in mind because the teams have to invent new strategies to counter whatever their opponent come up with. If all the games will have 1 sniper, 1 spy, 1 engy, 2 medics, 1 heavy, 1 demoman, 2 soldiers, 2 scouts and 1 pyro, in some ways it makes for a very predictable and a boring game.
If a team decides to go with 5 spies, the other team should counter with 5 pyros and find a balance that works. LIke balls (I think?) said, if we limit their choices we also limit their experience.

I understand that in practice the other team wouldn't go as 5 pyros and would just whine in spawn, demanding for a scramble. So what if we try to find another solution? Something that wouldn't limit their options (in a vanilla server) and would still stimulate for a all around good playing experience? Here's what I've got: whenever one team has more than 4 users of any class, say spies, the other team gets a message saying "Urgent War Intel Message: The enemy team seems to have 4 spies — better counter this with pyros!" Or something less teaching/preaching, like "Secret War Intel: Uh oh, the enemy team seems to have 4 engies — better pick a class that helps break it!"

Although I admit this might become annoying because it "teaches" too much, so maybe we should make one vanilla server more "noobish" than others? Start couching the new people a little bit? No crit being the most advanced in terms of skill level and this one vanilla server with "automatic hint messages" being the least advanced?

I kinda like the idea of a non-limited gameplay where people have to work together to find a solution that brings a victory to their team, but it's a tricky thing to come up with a way to make it work with totally new people.

There's a quote by Tim Ferriss I like: "It’s amazing how someone’s IQ seems to double as soon as you give them responsibility and indicate that you trust them." And I find it true, to an extent, perhaps we can find a way that allows people to do whatever they want, but also telling them to always counter the other team's crazy plans.

Just thinking out loud here to be honest...

You sir, are a genius.

Are engineers still disabled on ctf maps? As apart from limiting them there I'm not bothered that much.

Class limiters are great until your the person who doesn't get to play the class you wanted.

You can't please all the people, all the time. As SpA it is our job to keep an eye on how many spies there are and if there are too may , perhaps it should ourselves who set the example and change class.

I will be against limiting the class. I like matudes idea because it is supportive although at the same time, I am not familiar with our age range on our servers are so we would need to look at how we implement that very carefully to not seem to condescending ( I think thats the right word)

I sometimes see the maps breeze by so quickly or a stalemate happen right in the middle of the map , tbh , when vie got 4 engis on the other team and it looks hopeless, I look forward to the challenge.

Is there anyway to make everything proportionate n the servers , so if there are too many engis , their sentry guns end up with less health. or if there are too many spies, there cloak doesn't last as long.

I think thats my two cence

I voted yes, but normally i would say no to class limits.

The yes now means a class limit of maybe 3 for all classes but still classlimit immunity to encourage people to collect points as a regular or to donate for points to tie them to SpA servers.

Although matude's idea is great and i really support it, i dont think it would be best telling people how many classes there are on an opposing team. I mean it only takes on person on chat or mic to go "Damn, fella's that a lot of sentries they have there", but to implement something that specifically goes, "Hey look they have 4 engineers, well that tits up there element of suprise doesn't it".

Again i agree with matude on this, just maybe tweak the messages, i know we have a load of new players and what, but going with messages that specifically tell a team the number count of class will not help them in the long run. Besides this would really screw up scout rushs, spies who are trying to be sneaky and well engineers, who to some extent relie on a sentry being unknown about for the first couple of pushes. In the end telling them a message like that cripples some classes in my opinon.

In the end these people need to learn, and well this seems too much like holding their hands, then again limiting classes is just the same. Its really makes ya think don't it.

Good work Matude

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Gone, but somehow not forgotten.

Engineers should still be set to one on ctf maps still; which coincidently proves the need for support class limits

Also matude, you only half quoted me, I said that you limit the player by limiting their class choices, but equally you limit the player's experience if you don't.

TF2 was originally designed with no limitations, but that was 4 years ago, the game has changed a lot since then. 5 sentry guns in the beginning were no sweat because all you needed was a few ubers and a decent push; but now you have sahara spies, blowback pyros and wranglers which changes the balance considerably.

Informative messages is a good idea, and I support it. But it is still a passive helper and not a solution. Teaching players is one thing, but players learning is another.

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-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

I think the message should moan at the team with the shitty classes, rather than informing the enemy.
I mean I'm not too comfortable with pushing people out for reserve slots in general, but if that ethics ok, I'd consider class immunity. I remember when I was trying to persuade one of the engies to pick another class so I could build a teleport because one of them ever do

At the end of the day it is Team Fortress, and picking a class that's useless, and a bad choice for the task at hand, just so they can get some comfortable frags is lazy, and selfish. Because when there's 4 snipers/engies/spies, it's not them getting spammed at the cart from lack of real back up. Just come of dustbowl, we had 3 engineers on attack

Matudes first idea with points gain linked to how many play your class is stupid:

Unregistered people dont care.
People like me who already have a lot of points dont care.
Players who dont read the forum regularly dont care because they dont know/understand it.
The few people who are left are regulars and most of them probably switch without additional benefit.




I probably prefer many games with noobs not playing 6 spies and 5 snipers to a few games with 12 spies who know what they do, but it would be nice to be able to do that too.

Telling people that you "wonder why we lose with 4 spies and 4 snipers" usually works to get some of them to switch class, so I would prefer messages only to the people who are in class that gets played too much, if the team is doing bad. In the best case only to the people with the lowest points gain in a certain timeframe, telling them they could help their team more as medic.

I just go Scout and kill everyone, lol.

On a serious note though, I dig matude's ideas. The influx of new players from the F2P update kind of makes it a necessity to force some kind of gameplay-education on them, as most people won't care to become better by themselves.

EDIT: Wow, never type fast on your cellphone, loads of spelling mistakes :S

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All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

This will fix the engi issue http://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?t=161266

Please add this.

Nyan cat one or epic sax guy please

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

PONIES WE MUST HAVE!

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02:47 <@NabNab> saifon: you so sexy
02:47 <+saifon> D:

Voted yes to class limits as long as immunity doesn't come back. While I'd prefer to not have to limit what someone can do, its has been especially annoying since the uber update. Lots of the free players seem to go with Sniper, spy, engi, or Heavy. And these 4 classes in particular just make the game either into a stalemate or a steamroll. Theres just no real way to do anything when your on a team with 4 spies and 4 snipers, and at the same time its pretty much impossible to stop a team with 4 heavys (extra bonus points if they have the tomislav and a medic glued to them). And a defence with 4 engis just becomes tedious to throw yourself at again and again only for them to be back to full strength by the time you get back there.

And Immunity was a whole new level of annoying since if you got forced out of your fav class the game can just become very irritating (especially if the other ones who didn't get kicked out have no idea what they're doing).

While most of these problems could just be fixed by the teams communicating and working together, it never happens