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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2011, 20:10 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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Probably, i think 4 is okay tbh. ^^ I'll post more info about the decision when i get home :D

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2011, 20:26 
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but, but, but, but...... :shock:


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de 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2011, 20:29 
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[SpA]SaintK wrote:
Not yet, I'm a bit confused over the decision on that :mrgreen:
You? Confused? Nooooooooo.... :shock:

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2011, 21:01 
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[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:
Probably, i think 4 is okay tbh. ^^ I'll post more info about the decision when i get home :D
To clarify, i meant decision on the fact that we are not imposing strict class restrictions (other than engy on ctf) not the number or my own personal comment just now :)

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-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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ro 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2011, 21:12 
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Has no REAL life! (3017)
Huh?! :ugly:

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2011, 21:19 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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I don't know, i have trouble typing sense when im stoned... :mrgreen:

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ro 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2011, 21:22 
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Has no REAL life! (3017)
Want a Mars bar? :mrgreen:


So, are you saying trying to say that all class limits will be removed?

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2011, 21:25 
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[SpA]sebas wrote:
Want a Mars bar? :mrgreen:


So, are you saying trying to say that all class limits will be removed?
No, immunity (that's the discussion)


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ro 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2011, 21:46 
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Has no REAL life! (3017)
Got it! Sounds good. Though we might want to come up with other uses for SpA Points then? This definitely changes the SpA Points economy as there's now only 3 things to buy with it.

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2011, 21:49 
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[SpA]sebas wrote:
Got it! Sounds good. Though we might want to come up with other uses for SpA Points then? This definitely changes the SpA Points economy as there's now only 3 things to buy with it.
The feature never really got used much anyway.


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 12:51 
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To clarify a little more on the decision made by the TF2 Management.

We understand the issues around not limiting specific classes and appreciate all the useful feedback we received from this poll. For now the class limits will be left at their default setting. The reason being, we do not wish to restrict new player's in their class choices and avoid the issue of having to explain to new players why they cannot play the class of their choice. Part of the challenge of TF2 is having a team with a good balance of classes in order to complete objectives, this should be done in a way which is not strictly enforced, but rather through educating the new players.

No Crits server will have the same settings; and due to the higher player skill base on that server, they should be more aware of the importance of a having a balanced selection of classes.

The primary aim is to teach new players about team class balance and not force it.
We intend to assist this position in a number of ways:

1. The !Tips feature, which is currently in production and is intended to help quickly educate players with information not found in the standard loading tips and in game tutorial mode.
2. We are also looking into a notification system, which informs the player of the issue when they decide to be come the 4th spy for example.
3. Being vocal with your team about the need for a specific class etc (in a polite way ;) )

The only serious restriction has been setting the engineer limit to 1 on CTF maps, as CTF maps with 5 engineers on either team just makes the maps unplayable and as a result, not fun for the rest of the players (on both sides).

_________________
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-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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de 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 14:25 
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Sounds fair for me. After playing a while on the Vanilla servers most of the time people seem to understand that 4 engi-sniper-spies aren't working well on attack. On the other hand it's evil fun to burn enemy spies or bomb enemy engis en masse... :4

Good decision... :5:

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no 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2011, 11:23 
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First of all i vote "yes" to class limits, but it's not because of my consern of too many snipers/spies crippling a team. Although this will usually result in a steamroll, players will learn from it, and the scramble-function (wich seems to function well lately, good job on that :5: ) usually takes care of it.

What really bothers me is how several heavies can impact the game.

I wrote this http://forum.specialattack.net/viewtopi ... 74&t=11551 earlier before PMballs guided me over here. It pretty much explaines my issue with heavies. The fact that Valve has created a class that has a hitscan weapon with the highest dps while at the same time having the highest hp AND basically has no weaknesses due to loadout options is beyond me. For me it can completely destroy the essense of the TF2 gameplay when facing teams with several heavies.

So what i suggested in my thread was to limit heavies to 1 per team. I see now that this might have been hars (after all I was writing that post after a frustrating round :evil: ) but atleast consider having a limit of 2 per team. This will incurage people to play other classes wich actually feels rewarding to play when you gradually starts to master the class.

~Priest :18


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de 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2011, 13:05 
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Limit heavies? You're playing too much scout. ;-)

On some rounds I'd love to see at least one heavy on my (sniper-spy-engi-)team. I can't play heavy-medic-pyro-soldier on my own. On the other side they are even for my noobish sniping skills easy to take out.

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no 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2011, 14:55 
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[SpA]Blackhawk wrote:
Limit heavies? You're playing too much scout. ;-)

On some rounds I'd love to see at least one heavy on my (sniper-spy-engi-)team. I can't play heavy-medic-pyro-soldier on my own. On the other side they are even for my noobish sniping skills easy to take out.
Yes Banana, I said limit heavies not removing them. 3 or more heavies on a team ruins the gameplay of team fortress 2, beacuse of the way he's designed. I've explained this more specific in my other thread so i wont go into more detail here.

And I know that it's just not me saying this...


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2011, 15:10 
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Cheers for the feedback priest, I shall bring up this point when the TF2 manager returns from her festivals :D

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2011, 20:59 
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Kinda hopeless, but improving (117)
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hi can i sugest a kind of class limit idea?


is it possible to limit classes based on what being played? as in for every heavy the team loses the abiltiy to field a medic or some such?

so that if a team had 2 heavys they could not have a medic?

or something like that? not sure of the specifics but something to stop the sides being to tanked and still give every one the opurtunity to play what they wanted? well i suppose not every one but hey who cares about some heavys?


i suppose it would be points based so that a team got 30 points a heavy on it own is worth so much but when a medic is put into play they both cost the team more so then you get more soldiers and demos?

infact i can see so many holes with this that i am not sure its workable but yeah oh well
any thoughts?

sorry about the typos!

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2011, 23:01 
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I think that would be a balancing nightmare!

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ro 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 16 Aug 2011, 00:48 
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Has no REAL life! (3017)
Forcing people into/out of classes is not very desirable. Let's face it, we all have favorite classes for each map if not overall. The class limiter, I think, is there to provide some reasonable constraint so that the teams have some diversity in there and more of a fighting chance.

Besides, there is no team composition that would ever be better off without a medic.

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 16 Aug 2011, 01:18 
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I'm dead against anything which hinders someone's ability to play medic :)

So far the class limit has been decided, we will review the situation if it really starts becoming a real issue. However, all on going feedback is greatly appreciated!

:D

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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us 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2011, 03:12 
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I know it's a bit late for this, but I still think that the limiter should be based on how many players there are, mainly because on a team of (for example) 10, there are hypothetically 5 snipers, a heavy, an engie, 2 spies and a pyro.

How useful would that be?

If you tweaked the limiter so that each class had to be filled by one player that would not only encourage more time in other classes and also balance out the teams so that neither team is at a huge disadvantage. So on a limiter that required one player per class it would be one per class with an extra member in one class.

I hope that makes sense, I'm horrible at explaining ideas. :(


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2011, 04:24 
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I'm a little confused, there's only 1 engineer allowed on ctf maps, ok that does make sense, it's a heavy restriction just 1, unfortunate when I often play mini sentry engie on those maps, taking the slot :P but then there's 4 engies allowed on Barnblitz, Goldrush, and Dustbowl, surely that's just as bad? Seemingly every other game will have 4 spies, 4 snipers, 4 heavys, 4 engineers and that can either mean a complete steamroll, or the whole game grinds to a halt, nothing good comes out of having 4 of those classes.

So yeah, why just ctf maps, and why just engineer? Seriously Barnblitz the last point when there's sentrys everywhere, impossible, well as impossible as clearing the intel room.

Oh and currently you can't go engie at all on ctf maps.


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2011, 10:51 
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Cheers for the feedback guys. The class limit discussion is always open, and your concerns will be addressed in the next meeting when Anna returns for her holiday.

I have been informed that the reason you can't select engy at all on CTF maps at the moment is due to a bug created by valve which is affecting our limiter. We shall keep you posted on any developments..

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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ro 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2011, 14:10 
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Has no REAL life! (3017)
Junco, I think it's down to the map goal. For payload it's supposed to be Blue breaking Red's defense, so sentries make sense. CTF on the other hand are supposed to be quick rounds but a single sentry can completely block the intelligence.
You might argue the engineer impact is still kinda the same but there's a HUGE difference in map design: the Intelligence is always behind the spawn points. Which means that not only you have to break though spawn once to get it, you have to do so again to leave with it. This means you can break one sentry while going in and face a lvl3 sentry when coming out. And you have to do this 3 times per round to win.
On the other maps you break the defense close to spawn once and that's it, you won.

Otherwise, as always with this game, everything boils down to team composition and team skill. If a team knows how to protect their engies and turtle around the sentries then even two engineers, on any map, can prove unplayable. At the same time a demoman with a little support can take out any number of sentries if the other team doesn't know how to deal with him (with very few exceptions like a lvl3 sentry next to the pillar on Turbine).

It's rock-paper-scissors allover and usually it's how the rest of the team play that makes a difference (MEDICS!).

I have only really seen a couple of standstills caused by engineers so far so it's all good in my mind. Once the F2P pubbies learn the wonders of turtling engies though things will change and we'll probably end up with the old limits: none on CTF, 3 on the rest (maybe 2 on Control Points).

As for team composition, again, it's the same old story: back when the game was fresh every team only had pyros, snipers and spies. Nowdays heavies seem to have taken the pyro's place. This will change though.


@MonsterMath
I really, really think it's a bad idea to force people into a particular class. What if you join a server and the only class not filled is spy - while you really like playing medic. Would it really be fun for you to be forced to play spy?

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2011, 15:10 
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Yeah that makes sense Sebas, but I'd agree with a limit of 3, 3 on defense is quite normal. Often when I've gone engineer, and then 3 other people do after, I just have to change class, same for spy aswell, which is a bit annoying, a limit of 3 would fix that. What I couldn't make sense of though, is why there is a limit of 1, but then 4 on other maps for all the classes. As for pyros, soldiers, scouts, medics, demomen, having 4 of them wont mess up a team, and might even be required, at the same time they wouldn't start off a steamroll.


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 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2011, 15:36 
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1 engy on CTF stops the scouts just running wild and making the game mode equally pointless as having 4 engys that stop any form of progression.

I'll make notes of your comments and bring the topic back up for review when it comes to our next tf2 meeting. Thanks again.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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ro 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2011, 17:05 
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Has no REAL life! (3017)
[SpA]JuncoPartner wrote:
Yeah that makes sense Sebas, but I'd agree with a limit of 3, 3 on defense is quite normal. Often when I've gone engineer, and then 3 other people do after, I just have to change class, same for spy aswell, which is a bit annoying, a limit of 3 would fix that. What I couldn't make sense of though, is why there is a limit of 1, but then 4 on other maps for all the classes. As for pyros, soldiers, scouts, medics, demomen, having 4 of them wont mess up a team, and might even be required, at the same time they wouldn't start off a steamroll.
If you ask me I would say a limit of 2 on all but CTF maps would be best in terms of team composition. But that would be really forcing people into classes. Not only is that not fun but it does not really guarantee good games either: two heavies who are really new to the game may be hogging the spots from other more competent ones. Same for any other class.
Have me play spy and the team is already a man down 99% of the time. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2011, 17:11 
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Whilst F2P is still active, and the servers are still full of new people, we at this moment in time are not going to enforce any strict class limits (except ctf which does become unplayable above 1 engy). We do appreciate the concerns people have, and on a personal note, I was quite vocal early on about enforcing strict class limits, but now I see that with the current F2P environment it is just not a practical solution in regards to attracting and keeping new players and making new regulars.

The beauty of tf2 is that even if you had 10 engys on defence, that can still be countered in some way. We will discuss this further in future meetings though, and please keep up the helpful feedback when you can.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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de 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2011, 18:45 
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Someone up for some engineering? :ugly:


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Class Limits Poll
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2011, 19:36 
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lol I was on the PC gamer server one time, and we setup 10 sentry guns, all with wranglers at the very back of the last point on dustbowl, and had one pyro spy checking, and a heavy as backup and lasted for like 15mins of the round, holding back wave upon wave, until the last minute when one spy managed to sap everything giving a uber demo enough time to take us all out, then the rest of blue just came in and capped. Was very fun :D but also shows how almost any obstacle can be overcome. :D

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-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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