I not a very active guy when it comes to posting on forums, so you can all imagine how much this must be bothering me (and i think also others) when I make a post here

So here's the problem: Heavies. They are so grossly overpowered (especially after the last update) and control so much of the game, that to counter a good heavy/medic properly, you need to have your own heavy/medic. And now we are only talking about 1 heavy. Toss in two more with descent aim and you have a freight train rolling from one side of the map to the other (and this is especially known on pl_maps). Now this wouldn't bother me at all if it actually took some practise to play the heavy, wich should reward the player what ever class he's playing, to do well with. But here's the big issue: It's so god damn easy to play that even new players can pick the heavy right away and reach the top of the list.

Let's just look at some facts (or stenghts of the heavy however you may call it):

- The heavy has by far the most hp by all the classes in the game. If he also has a medic, the health increases even more compared to all the other classes, and you can't possibly hope to take him down as any class (given that the heavy has the basic knowlage of pressing a button and moving the mouse). I'm not considering spy/sniper, i'll come back to this later. And ubercharge, well, this goes both ways so I wont take this into consideration aswell.

- He deals extremely high damage close up, but he also does this CONSISTENT. A heavy doesnt need to worry about missing a bullet or two when he has 180 left and no need to reload. Just this is one of the main reasons why the heavy is so broken (uhm, unbroken).

- If faced in open and even at range (wich is his weakness, oh wait, this is also the weakness of all the other classes exept the sniper), you can't possibly hope to close in on a heavy without taking significant damage, or to be honest, end up dead.

- Even taken at suprise, you cant really expect to survive heavy before he actually drops. Hell, even 3v1 the heavy has a really good chance of taking out atleast one foe.

But Priest, what about his weaknesses you might say. Well lest take a look:

- The heavy is slow and has little mobility. Gloves of running urgently has long since solved this matter.

- The heavy need time to fire his weapon. Gun of "screw spinup-time" (cant recall the name), solved this last update.

- Spy/sniper. This is no more of a treath to the heavy aware of his surrounding then any other class. "You are wro.." No, I'm not. Descent communication, positioning and the backup of your own team ensures this.

- The heavy can restore 50% hp instantly. This is one.. oh wait, that not a weakness.


So what I'm considering here, is that we cap the limit of heavies of 1 PER TEAM (atleast on the non-crit server where you cant get a lucky crit). The heavy will still oppose a big treath, but not change the game completely as it can now with several heavies allowed at once. This will also encourage players to try out other classes and get better, but getting alot more satisfaction from it since you are now getting better each day from gradually mastering the class.

So to all of SpA, and regulars on our servers, please take this into consideration, or leave you own opinion on the matter.

~Priest

Problem is with heavys that once they learn how to w+m1 and spam E, they can sit at the top of the board. With all the new players now, the snipers aren't good enough or interested to take them out and depending on charge or overheal snipers wont always cut it, and everyone else just runs and dies infront of the minigun. Just really kills the game trying to play around the heavy medic combos, and trying to flank and separate them. I was playing on ctf_well with a lot of new players, and 3 guys, a heavy, medic, and a pyro to handle spies, just walked back and fourth taking the intel unchallenged, did all I could as spy, but it's hard to get the pyro and the heavy in one quick movement, the medic was always behind with his bonesaw ready.

I've actually learnt spy, just to deal with them and or engineers, but after a few backstabs, people start getting wise to it, and out come the pyros. When there's more than one heavy it just gets silly. Then there's the heavy who has his tomislav, sandwich, and GRUs, and boy are they paranoid, no reliable way to counter that. It's as if a team wins based on how many heavys and medics they have. That's right as well, I prefer the no critz, but increases the survivability of heavys drastically.

Engineers are sort of causing the same issue, just stopping the game, not as bad though, but I would really like management to rethink class limits, at least 3 for heavys and engineers. Spies and snipers too, had 4 snipers 3 spies earlier, I just had to go to another one of the servers, not pushing the cart alone but yeah our servers cater to new players nowadays we can't rely on common sense/knowledge to keep games enjoyable for them.

We appreciate your feedback guys and we do have an ongoing thread were you can post your concerns about class limits and you can see the managers current position on class limits at this time.

http://forum.specialattack.net/viewtopi ... 74&t=11150

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

Sure, heavies are pretty strong now, but I think people just dont know how to deal with them.

If everybody really sucks at playing the counter classes spy and sniper, you can always use 2 demos or kritzdemo with stickies to take care of the heavy+medic easily, as long as you remember that you can deal damage around a corner while the heavy cant.

I've only been playing scout/sniper and have had no problems with heavies, just got to pick your fights. If you kill all their team mates then they can't do too much.

_________________
a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

Wait! I though the logic was that Priest was our counter to everything. If he can't counter it, we are boned.

On topic though, sure heavy's are strong at close range, so is everything. Think of the Heavy as a tank (As in a WW2 Tank, not a l4d tank, although doesn't make that much difference in reflection) team work is required in this game to deal with them. A capable team should have no problems with a heavy at all, and the only reason he is strong now is because of the influx of new players. It's the same with the Engineer, people just run into their line of sight and are mowed down.

Team Fortress 2 requires team work, and yes a Medic/Heavy pair is a real pain in the arse, so is a Medic/Demo, Medic/Soldier even me and my friend john perfected the Medic/Scout Combo.

It's not Heavy's that are the issue here, it is Team work. Guys stop working together and this game will be infintly more fun. Communication will always win, no matter what.

Simple way to deal with a Heavy, they are easily distracted, so get some people to distract them from a far, then get a spy to backstab the combo. Don't have a spy (You will have 3 don't worry) then let a sniper deal with it. No snipers (Then your team is Noobs) simple, Solider, Demo, Pyro, even a scout can take down this monolithic cake wagon.

One Heavy a team though...actually like the sound of it

_________________
Gone, but somehow not forgotten.

Well that's the issue really, teamwork, and if your team are all new players they don't even respond

Point is here that 3-4 heavys are just too much to deal with, often when there's more than one with a medic, you can't even avoid them. Not to brag, but I don't even know what new players do when they don't have me, or someone with some experience trying to counter the heavys.

I'll agree with heavies beeing especially strong now due to F2P, but that isn't really the main issue here. I'm also refering to matches with 2 good teams with a descent class setup. I've seen it countless of times; the team with most heavies/medics will win 9 out of 10 times. And it's not because of lack of skill on the loosing team, its because the heavy/medic is so bloody OP. Part of this is that the heavy is so god damn right out of the box easy to play, the other part is because after all the new weapons, he has hardly any weaknesses left. A simple proof of this is that he is the class with most points/minute.

And for spies and snipers, those are highly situational counters. A descent heavy will have no problem against them as long as he's aware of his surroundings. As i've been playing heavy myself, I dont see spy/sniper more of a problem then other classes. I'll rather fear a uber/kritz or long range sentry wich is hard to close in on.

As for "team fortress 2 is teamplay bla bla bla" this is all fine, but it happens that the heavy/medic has their own team aswell. The bottom line is that it requires SO MUCH EFFORT to bring down a good heavy/medic wich can't be said about any other combo. This is a big issue in competative play aswell, and not without reason.

All I'm suggesting is that we limit heavies on each team to 1 or 2 (I'll rather have 1 though). I'm betting that it will result in better gameplay, more fun for each team and reward the team with the best teamwork to win instead of a case of having most heavies around.

Aaaaaaah, the solution is to kill their entire team first! Problem solved then!

No seriously, I was expecting some understanding from you atleast Minimoose

We understand it is frustrating and ofc organising a F2P public team is also a challenge, but like 3 lvl3 sentry guns; a couple of heavy medic combos is a hard challenge to overcome. But like 3 lvl3 sentry guns, can be taken on, the opposing team just needs a decent counter attack, or match them with heavies too.

Management appreciates the feedback and we will bring up these points in the next meeting and see what the tf2 manager's thought's are on this matter.

or you could just stop being a noob priest and go kill them to death..

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

Go cry some moooore! Thanks though!

Please don't send me minecraft pictures :<

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

I think that the limiter should be based on how many players are in the game rather than there being a set amount. The more players the more heavies allowed.

I can see your point very well, Priest. The fact that in one game my entire team decided to mess around with the enemies heads by ALL going heavy is a little bit ridiculous.

Also, heavies can be easily taken out when they're turning around, if you kill the medic first, then go after the heavy from behind you should have no problem. It's mostly a circumstantial hit but it works even for opposing medics. ^_^

but it was an epic minecraft flash but I guess i totally fucked it up from working

Yeah that's anudda ting, the team sort of revolves around the heavy and medic, as if they're the sun, not often you can get them on their own. A good scout could destroy an unskilled heavy medic combo, but it only takes a 3rd class, pyro, soldier or whatever to jump in and rape the busy scout.

But the scout died a hero.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

I understand entirely, I just haven't met the problem myself. You complain about your team being organised poorly, but you have to remember that their team probably is as well. If you play scout, just flank, kill the medic, and then run (if you're too low to get a couple of meats on the heavy). TF2 on public is ridiculously easy at the moment because most players still don't have a clue what they are doing.

The heavies I've seen on our servers can only get like 20 damage on a flanking scout if he just jumps over their head a lot, and a scout can easily do 80+ damage per hit on that heavy, maybe that's different on no crits, but I expect more team work on no crits anyway!

_________________
a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

Heavys and the medics are never on their own, you're basically dancing around the whole team trying to squeeze in meatshots, while on fire, with rockets flying over you're head oh and the heavys minigun starts critting, why not?

You also have to limit spy cause spy-with-power-gun+medic is OP. -_-'

At the moment I just don't see an issue. I had now a whole bunch of games and had never an issue with an OP heavy/medic-combo. It's a rape if two decent players stick together this way... but then the classes doesn't matter. If you're argueing that a decend h/m-combo is evil... then you have to count in a decent counter-class on the other team, too.

_________________
SaintK: I'm completely lost

I haven't really seen a problem with heavies to be honest. Sure, a good heavy with a medic on his back and some corners to give him the edge is powerful but he's still vulnerable to snipers, spies and good demomen. Nothing has really changed that much.

Then again I play sniper quite a lot and enjoy harassing heavies as a scout. I've seen the games where 4 heavies are hugging the cart but then I am usually quite happy as they are free kills.

The issues in gameplay are the same as always imo:
1. Good team composition wipes the floor with the other not so well balanced
2. Demomen+solly+misc spam is hard to push through since you either need an uber with the team backup, a solid distraction or to be able to focus and take out one target a time quickly

_________________
Comfortably Numb

3 guys > 1 guy, WHO WUDDA THUNK IT?

_________________
All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

Well that is my point, you wont win 3v1s against a heavy and medic. I say 3v1s, I mean 1 versus the heavy and medic, and whoever else is around.

Saint would win with his sick nade skills.

You have just got to pick your targets intelligently. If the heavy/medic combo is surrounded, wait until they are distracted by something and sneak 2/3 shots on the medic. Normally the team won't be in a huge ball of death, and if they are pick the people off on the outskirts, slowly whittling down their support, eventually they will be overrun.

The whole point of a heavy is that with support he can roll everything, without support he is very vulnerable.

_________________
a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

He is fat too.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

Yes that's obvious -_-
You could try, I don't know.... NOT fighting against 3 characters alone and instead back up or call for support.
If it were ANY 3 classes you'd probably lose, that's not the heavy's fault here.

_________________
All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

You have my vote here Priest! 1 is enough on the no-crit

Joy!

_________________
"this is what it has come to... watching unboxing videos and having a braingasm"

Heavy is one of my favorite classes! Don't you dare nerf it! I like having top scores from time to time!

But seriously, I mostly play demoman and taking out heavies is not that difficult - you just spam nades at them and if they are not killed - add stickies or charge at them with sword. Also, splash damage hurts the medic or other classes surrounding the heavy, so...


Yeah but a skilled heavy and medic pair can be really tough to counter, if the whole team just runs at them and gets mowed down.

_________________

I don't have a problem with one heavy/medic combo it's when you get more it starts becoming a problem and that picture I uploaded just takes the biscuit!

_________________
"this is what it has come to... watching unboxing videos and having a braingasm"

We were getting miserably steam rolled earlier by heavys and medics, but I managed to talk my team into also picking medics and heavys (I know eh, amazing) and I went spy, and on the next round we lost, they increased the number of their heavys and medics but we put up a good fight. Truly is heavy medic fortress.