So... same as about map... We had a little dispute over the spy stuff yesterday... so what do you think about the new gadgets?

Cheers
Banana

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

The pyro stuff is just a lot of fun, building the mmph is tricky, but crits are nuts. Seems balanced, not being able to airblast is huge.

Not sure about the spy-cicle, I've been using it with invisi watch, and it seems fair, pyros can really shutdown spies, which isn't fun when they dedicate their entire game to mindlessly flaming around looking for you (uninstallthefuckinggame) and the ice will allow you to escape being lit up, and cloak away, but the if pyros onto you it wont be difficult for him to light you up after 2 secs, and you wouldn't be able to trick stab the pyro.

Deadringer just kills it though.. it's just godmode, because pyros could light up deadringer spies and after waiting for the insane damage resistance to end the pyro could finally kill them. Now the DR spy can simply shrug the flames off, so he basically has a third life before he even finds an ammo pack. Also because DR spies will be carrying the enforcer they can actually gun down the pyro during his flame invincibility, because all fire damage is resisted. So the pyro trying to bring such a spy under control is out of the question. The another thing is the knife leaves ice sculptures, this is bad when you don't have the DR because people will realise there is a spy around, It doesn't matter with DR because there isn't any need for spy play or being sneaky, if the jigs up, you deadring out of there, or gun them all down with the enforcer, it's so funny to do, but so unfair when it's you being shotdown.

Yeah I don't like the deadringer but I use to use it a lot, and I tried to use the other watches because it just didn't feel like playing spy, I just felt like I was being an annoying turd killing people because they couldn't kill me, not because I had played cleverly so they didn't spot me in the first place. I didn't realise how irritating and unfun to play against I was being, until I had my own issues with these powerhouse "here I am!!" spies.

Spy stuff is complete bullshit. "Oh hey, spy has 3 major weaknesses, let's remove them all and see what happens."

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All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

What is the second and third and how are they removed?

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slurper

Watched the video Junco linked in the hidden tag?

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

yep, the spycicle is pretty ridiculous. dead ringer made them practically invincible already, and if you can't even spycheck anymore... well, shit. surely it'll get nerfed. maybe no fire-proof-ness for a few moments after you've made a kill?

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ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: true genius
ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: doesn't make sense
ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: till you're senseless

Damage penalty - Enforcer let's you do decent damage. Its drawback doesn't even matter with DR iirc.
Fire (he suffers the most from it for obvious reasons) - New knife takes care of it for long enough. Makes spychecking as pyro next to useless (unless you spray around for literally 10secs like a scrub - which also makes you useless in other important places). The knife's disadv. doesn't matter because after a few rounds players are aware that a spy is around anyway (and as shown in the video, it can also be an advantage. Good job Valve).
Glass cannon - receive next to zero damage with Dead Ringer cloak.

You have to spycheck for so long that the enemy gets more time than necessary to retaliate and counterattack, due to a single player alone.

EDIT: I realize I named 3 different weapons dealing with 3 different weaknesses. The spycicle alone obviously only removes one, but the combination of those 3 is way better than it should be.

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All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

The thing is the revolver is actually pretty strong anyway, it has 6 shots, does good damage, and has reasonable accuracy. I mean if someone reads this and thinks "omg whiners, the games balanced, you just need to learn to kill spies lol" the reason why it's so silly is because deadringer is basically a crutch, oh yes it is, I leaned on it too. To add to the deadringers anti-espionage play they gave the spy an incredibly overpowered gun, now there is 100% no downside to using the enforcer with the deadringer, but with the other watches it makes you take longer to cloak, that's balanced? Would make more sense if you just couldn't cloak while holding the enforcer with all watches, that way every spy could use it, and you can't just gun people down until you lose then deadring.

Deadringer can't be nerfed they already have nerfed it, but it needs a rework, so deaths are convincing and will always drop a corpse without showing cloak blinking, and the damage resistance should be 3,5 secs, but also get fire resistance, the so death is convincing, but it wont be that bullshit of everyone spamming an obvious cloaked spy and not being able to kill him. Because it could be a great watch.

I heard pyro has weapons that deal non-fire damage.
Spychecking is still teamwork.

If the pyro gets close enough to make the spy use Spy-cicle he can probably stop him with airblast and melee or use the shotgun to kill the spy. Every other situation didnt change.
Its just like Ambassador vs Razorback, people have to adapt a tiny little bit.

I didnt get to play against such a spy yet.

Well that's it, if the spy can't kill the pyro who's shotgunning (if the pyro has it equipped) he just deadrings and runs off. If the spy was smart enough not to waste his spy-cicle, he can deadring, and then extinguish himself if a pyro flames him, which means airblasting them into a corner (if there is one around) wont be viable without knowing if where the spy is. Might sound like theorycraft, but this is more or less what would happen. The spy wouldn't die until he fails to activate is deadringer, or recollect ammo before incoming damage. Pressing m2 and knowing ammo spots is pretty easy. Razorback while annoying is easy though, you just shoot the sniper, not as complicated.

Though I will say, I don't think seen you play spy like a cowboy anyway

I often have less than 50% kills from backstabs, even with my impressive scores.
With the revolver!

Shooting down a spy with Enforcer using the shotgun? Yeah... have fun.

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

Shotgun deals more damage than flamethrowers.

?!?

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

Shotgun is only effective at mid to close range. Enforcer is more accurate and shoots and reloads faster, spy hence has the advantage from farther away. And if he doesn't win, he can just activate dead ringer for instant invincibility.

The thing that bothers me the most is that the game designers just don't seem to have put thought into their weapons.
From the beginning of TF2, spy was supposed to have an unwinnable matchup against Pyro. It was INTENDED that he doesn't stand a chance. Pyro has always been and should always be the natural counter to spies.
Now they're just busting out all these weapons in an attempt to please all those scrubs who are apparently too fucking stupid to use some fucking common sense and look at the fucking screen for once. An engineer wouldn't have to deal with a demoman if his teammates that have an advantage against him (like scouts) would take care of him. But everyone is too fucking busy going for kills all the time instead of playing tactically smart, like it's CoD Deathmatch. Lots of new weapons actually DISCOURAGE teamplay and just scream "be a lone wolf instead".
TF2 once was a great game, but they seriously overdid the custom weapons. I can count the good, balanced ones on one hand.

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All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

Shotgun deals more damage per second to a single enemy than flamethrowers. So if you cant use the flamethrower against the spy due to Spycicle you can just switch to the shotgun to kill him.
Unless you like to talk about situations where the spy is miles away and guns the pyro down with the enforcer where the pyro is unable to do anything. That can be done without the new Spycicle.

And even forcing a spy to use the DR is a pretty big deal, he either has to run far away ( maybe your teammates should listen to the uncloak sound more ? ) or has to go to a nearby medium/large metal source, usually there aren't 3 different available. Or he waits somewhere hidden and thats super boring and punishment enough.

Here is another idea to kill a spy: 2 flaregun hits.

I will gladly play against Junco to test if the theorycrafting holds.

From the latest games an uncloaked spy was most of the time in a distance out of usefull shotgun range with full advantage for Enforcer. With Flaregun he still can use his out-of-fire-card and win in addition to being hard to get hit twice with a flare.

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

Flamethrower is probably the most damaging weapon in the game (together with Minigun). Contrary to popular believe you still have to aim well to use its full potential though.
But why, tell me why in god's name, why should the spy NOT BE ABLE TO BE DAMAGED BY A FLAMETHROWER when he has always been supposed to be weak against flames for a good reason?

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All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

I concur

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Classy is when a woman has everything to flaunt, but chooses not to show it!

yea, being a proud owner of a spycicle, I think valve should nerf the shit out of it. With a dead ringer and a spycicle,
your pretty well immune to pyros. They should give the pyro some awesome new jar weapon (like mad milk and jarate)
that counters the melting and/or the deadringer. Maybe a molotov cocktail or blue fire (zelda reference ftw). Either that or take the spy's health down to 60 like that health sapping knife.