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gb 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 12:30 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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Will check out tonite, and hopefully i wont have to keep manually balancing... although, Torn thought i was doing quite a good job, moving the people i know with the skills to the correct teams, was quite balanced, so glad i got admin bound to a key. :mrgreen:

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 14:57 
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wasnt letting people join a team for some reason :(

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ro 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 15:02 
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Indeed, blu was short on players sometimes, and some people couldn't join for some reason.

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 15:12 
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one thing i would say with this plugin (and yes its hard to tell because last night I WAS the autobalance bot - as i know a lot of the players skill levels) but generally i havent noticed too much imbalance so far, but its hard to full know until all the major bugs have been phased out. :D

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 15:43 
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is Wonder Woman (5950)
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Had a game this avo, started out ok, but as soon as more people joined they could only join Red and not Blue. Either that or they were stuck in spec and couldn't join at all. So what I think is wrong with this balancer is it just doesn't seem to see the amount of players in Blue hence refusing people to join. I think that it thinks both teams are full therefore not allowing people to join even though Red is double of Blue. I tried to do an admin swop but because they were in spec I couldn't see their names in the list.

In the end I would go to spectate which the balancer would then think that there was room and hey presto people were able to join again. After a couple of times of me going into spec the balancer seemed to kick in and allow people into both teams and we had even numbers on both sides.

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 18:48 
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There was a bug that led to one team's ranking not decreasing as much as it should when a player disconnected, which was fixed earlier today. If you see any further oddness, please note down the time (and your own timezone). Then I'll be able to go straight to the right place in the server logs. :)

BTW, the plugin does let one team have more players than the other as long as the rankings are even. It biases against teams with more players, but doesn't outright block people from joining them. Type sb_balance into the console at any time to see what's going on behind the scenes.


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 18:51 
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Cheers Theory! nice work! im liking the plugin so far, excusing the bugs obviously but the fact you are fixing stuff is awesome, its like, the opposite of the games company i work at ^^

Its quite interesting cause last night we had some 10v13/14 scenarios going on, but it was still balanced, as the team with 10 on it had alot of strong players, but it wasnt a steam roll for either side :D

If this works we can finally shut up Barts Russian mouth and stop him moaning all the time ^^

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ro 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 18:54 
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How do the balancer counts the skill ? What is it based on ?


ps. in what language is it written ? :3


LE: Cheers saint :4

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Last edited by [SpA]Edeph on 20 Oct 2010, 19:14, edited 1 time in total.

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 18:58 
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Edeph wrote:
How do the balancer counts the skill ? What is it based on ?


ps. in what language is it written ? :3
It's based on the stats in your steamprofile. It's written for the VALVe plugin interface; http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Server_plugins


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 20:12 
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is Wonder Woman (5950)
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Theory wrote:
There was a bug that led to one team's ranking not decreasing as much as it should when a player disconnected, which was fixed earlier today. If you see any further oddness, please note down the time (and your own timezone). Then I'll be able to go straight to the right place in the server logs. :)

BTW, the plugin does let one team have more players than the other as long as the rankings are even. It biases against teams with more players, but doesn't outright block people from joining them. Type sb_balance into the console at any time to see what's going on behind the scenes.
Thank you :5:

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 20:23 
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Theory wrote:
nothing exciting, internal cleanup mostly :)

New plugin version uploaded!


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pl 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 22:57 
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I honestly think this plugin fails in terms of basic design. From my experience balancing skill with number of players result in a massive stalemate. Ok its balanced, but playing 10 vs 14 isn't fun. It really doesnt work on payload maps, where having 3-4 more players makes it impossible to push.
And from what I've read on server most players dont like it at all. It works, but it shouldnt allow such extreme possibilities like 4 more players on other teams just to have a balanced round fighting for middle control point for 20 minutes.


Last edited by Bartg on 20 Oct 2010, 23:00, edited 1 time in total.

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 23:00 
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Bartg wrote:
I honestly think this plugin fails in terms of basic design. From my experience balancing skill with number of players result in a massive stalemate. Ok its balanced, but playing 10 vs 14 isn't fun. It really doesnt work on payload maps, where having 3-4 more players makes it impossible to push.
And from what I've read on forums most players dont like it at all. It works, but it shouldnt allow such extreme possibilities like 4 more players on other teams just to have a balanced round fighting for middle control point for 20 minutes.
I'm amazed by the fact you always see things in the complete opposite light as me :mrgreen:

Now i must admit i haven't played payload maps yet with this plugin, so i can't judge on that. However i did play a few maps 14 vs 10 and those were the most balanced games ever in terms of chances. The game really felt again like it was meant to feel, about teamwork and not to which side of the teams the skill is tipped due to the better people joining at one side.


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pl 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 23:02 
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Has no REAL life! (1715)
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Just ask people on server, they dont like it. And if by balance you mean fighting in the same chokepoint for 10 minutes then yes it does that pretty well. Like goldrush couple of minutes ago, which ended exactly the same for both sides, cause plugin forced 2-3 more players on red team.
I think it shouldn't allow 3 or 4 more players on one team for the sake of balance.


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nl 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 23:09 
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Theory wrote:
Fixed a crash

New plugin version uploaded!


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 23:10 
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Dont get me wrong, i love having more people to shoot, but its a little overwhelming when its 9-15 :(

I mean one reason the "skilled" players are so good is they normally have a solid team behind them, or at least... an even wall of spam and cannon fodder.

can it not lwe not limit it to say 2?




Ok, noted down some other things myself and some of those on the server.

from 9-10 i noticed that most people would go to the full team when joining

Lag jumps whenever people left or joined. Not just me, some of the others had it too, but it seemed to get a little better.

Some guy said when he got moved over his medic hud was all backwards compared to his team colour. i have no screenshot im sorry to say.

at 21:54 the server crashed "server cvar 'mp_teams_unbalance_limit' changed to 1.0000 (unless that was u saint? :mrgreen: )

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 23:13 
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Maybe the plugin does need some sort of logic in trying to keep the numbers balanced as well.


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cl 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 23:14 
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I suppose the fact that there might be teams of 9 vs 15 is because of the scores... wouldn't it be smarter to change one or two of the top ranked players over to the other team?

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pl 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 23:18 
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[SpA]SaintK wrote:
Maybe the plugin does need some sort of logic in trying to keep the numbers balanced as well.
That could work, cause by having perfect mathematical balance you have a lot more players on one team making it almost impossible to proceed on certain maps.


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2010, 23:31 
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The limit it'll work to can be set with sb_skill_limit, so if you get in touch with an admin they can experiment with different values. Nobody has ever claimed that the numbers I picked blind were going to work first time, and saying that something "fails in terms of basic design" before understanding it certainly isn't a way to win friends.

I had the numerical advantage biasing wrong until this evening (the effect was reversed thanks to misplaced brackets) so reserve any judgement until tomorrow. ;)


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2010, 00:39 
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is Wonder Woman (5950)
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Theory, you are a star :5:

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ro 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2010, 00:52 
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Has no REAL life! (3017)
Assigning people to teams at map start based on hlstatsx is fine. Balacing team performance on a specific map, with each player playing a specific class, does not really work based on the stats.

This is because for it in order to work, there are two assumptions:
1. Each person plays the class or classes he is best as, roles that have pushed the stats to the level they are;
2. New server players are unfamiliar to the game or, otherwise said, eveybody plays the same amount of time on the servers, therefore the skill level being not affected by online time.

What I'm seeing right now from the plugin is it's putting all the regulars in one team, and cramming up the other with extra new players, assuming the regulars can take it.

My suggestion would be to assign people at first based on stats, since that is better than random or stacking, BUT balance map performance based on current play from each player, not his history.

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2010, 01:48 
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Theory wrote:
The limit it'll work to can be set with sb_skill_limit, so if you get in touch with an admin they can experiment with different values. Nobody has ever claimed that the numbers I picked blind were going to work first time, and saying that something "fails in terms of basic design" before understanding it certainly isn't a way to win friends.

I had the numerical advantage biasing wrong until this evening (the effect was reversed thanks to misplaced brackets) so reserve any judgement until tomorrow. ;)
i tried to tell him theory ;)

i think sebas sums up my opinion, as much i enjoy taking on the masses with people i know, its not ideal.

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-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2010, 12:20 
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[SpA]sebas wrote:
This is because for it in order to work, there are two assumptions:
1. Each person plays the class or classes he is best as, roles that have pushed the stats to the level they are;
2. New server players are unfamiliar to the game or, otherwise said, eveybody plays the same amount of time on the servers, therefore the skill level being not affected by online time.
They could also be having an off day, messing around, or be another person sharing the same account. :) It's not possible to perfectly match players up, except maybe with realtime data as you point out, but that's okay since it's not desirable to do so either. Lifetime points and lifetime minutes provides a good indication of player quality while still providing a range of experiences, not just 24/7 stalemates.

With that said it is highly likely that there are more stalemates going on at the moment (I should get some stats reporting going), which could be considered worse than steamrolling depending on your viewpoint. I suspect that the secret to fun games is providing a good spread of skills within two well-balanced team: overall things are still even, but at the level of individual fights you'd end up with much more back and forth as talented players meet groups of newbies and drive them away. Currently the plugin doesn't do anything to encourage this.

I don't know what your second point means. Steam's stats are global and count only time played in servers, not just time with TF2 running. Idling is an issue but I work around it.
[SpA]sebas wrote:
What I'm seeing right now from the plugin is it's putting all the regulars in one team, and cramming up the other with extra new players, assuming the regulars can take it.
Not sure why this would happen, unless there's a lot of churn in the other team. Is this something you find in general, or just something you saw once?
[SpA]sebas wrote:
My suggestion would be to assign people at first based on stats, since that is better than random or stacking, BUT balance map performance based on current play from each player, not his history.
A good idea, but see above. It would also require team switching mid-round, which is something I want to eliminate as much as possible.


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2010, 12:26 
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Theory wrote:
[SpA]sebas wrote:
What I'm seeing right now from the plugin is it's putting all the regulars in one team, and cramming up the other with extra new players, assuming the regulars can take it.

Not sure why this would happen, unless there's a lot of churn in the other team. Is this something you find in general, or just something you saw once?

I was playing all night last night, and this did happen alot, normally my team was full of regulars and the opposite, i couldn't recognise a name, plus it was 14 v 9 for alot of the games (the 9 being mainly regulars)

is it possible to make it so team sizes (although balanced) can only have max two extra team members... even the best players will get overwhelmed against that many players after a while, and or, just be hitting a stalemate; with the regulars killing lots of new people, but there being tooo many on the opposite team to actually make some ground

Then, imo i think you have cracked it and got a nice little balance plugin :D

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de 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2010, 16:47 
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Geek (630)
The balancer should not balance so "Good" that teams end with uneven numbers.
People moarn about uneven player numbers, and for newcomers its not a big advertisement for the server to become their fav, if they alway see uneven playernumbers.

Might be a good idea that the balance would be based on skill, but does it not also belong to skill to learn to play in a weak team.?
From my experience on the server it happend from time to time that i ended in a weak team and got steam rolled. But mostly there have been good matches, otherwise i would have chosen some other favourite server. ;)

For me it would be enought if the server balances on numbers and admins care for teamchanges if ownage would be so strong that people start to leave the server.

The big win as also the big loss belong to the gaming life :) Most time stalemate would just be boring . ;)


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nl 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2010, 19:21 
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Quote:
[SpA]Saint K.: i saw u left me a message but i was in the middle of a migration so couldnt check it
[SpA]Saint K.: can u resend it? :d

Theory: can't remember all the changes now :p
Theory: but some security-related ones
Theory: not that there's any particular risk in this kind of thing
[SpA]Saint K.: lol
So, there is a new version up... :mrgreen:


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2010, 00:18 
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Has no REAL life! (3493)
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Theory wrote:
The limit it'll work to can be set with sb_skill_limit, so if you get in touch with an admin they can experiment with different values. Nobody has ever claimed that the numbers I picked blind were going to work first time, and saying that something "fails in terms of basic design" before understanding it certainly isn't a way to win friends.
hmm. what is it at the moment, and would tightening it up reduce the team imbalance in terms of team members? what people really aren't liking is the whole 5 vs 8/9 thing, and alot of the time they have a point. i'm not saying that finding a good balance with sb_skill_limit won't get us anywhere - in all likelyhood, it can probably do the main job if we keep fiddling with it - but it looks like people are more prone to complaining/leaving if team numbers aren't even. it may well just be a matter of psychology, but it's a real sticking point on the servers. if a value could be implemented that sets to max possible team difference (e.g, set it to "2" and the biggest difference would be a 6vs8 or something) then that would be ideal.

i was gonna do some more talking here + give some feedback, but i'm so tired that i started writing long-winded sentences then completely forgetting what the point of them were halfway through :ugly:
so instead, here's a question; is skill being judged purely by the player's time on the server, or from his wider steam stats (specifically, total playtime)? cos it could be neat to match skill to class playtime (playtime of that class judged proportionately to that player's overall tf2 playtime, after, say, accumulating 10 hours of playtime total). i don't know the implications of this, but it would be a workaround the restrictions of gathering the stats from only the server, and would equate 'skill' with 'skill this particular player has with this particular class'. playtime isn't the be-all and end-all of skill, of course, but it's a fair enough yardstick. idk. just a suggestion.


^ if that made little/no sense just tell me. i really should be sleeping right now D:

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pl 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2010, 00:58 
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I think that perfectly balance teams leads to pefect rocks hitting each other in the same spot for 15 minutes. Like just before on granary - we were fighting like 15 minutes between 2nd and middle CP with no result whatsoever.


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: New team balancer
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2010, 12:56 
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granary always turns into a stalemate on pubs tho :p

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