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 Post subject: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 09:57 
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Lord of Minecraft (2894)
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Ok. We had a little chat about this and a quick poll a few posts down but the subject has not been addressed. Far too many of our regular players do not come to the forums (or at best do so very infrequently) and far too many of the loudest voices on the forum simply do not play TF2 anywhere near enough to have a solid understanding of what the community wants.

Simply put, the rotation needs changing somewhat. Nightfall, Lakeside and Steel are now (aside from the times that the server is filled with SpA members) very unpopular maps. Each of them causes a mass exodus, a very rapid rotation of all the players and one hell of a lot of moaning. For the last few weeks I have been making observations of what happens when these maps crop up and it is always the same. Now I know I am not the most active of TF2'ers out there, but I tend to be on at times when you lot aren't (between 1400 and 1900 GMT) and what I am seeing goes very much against the opinion of a lot of SpA members. All three of the maps I mention will empty the server by 50-80% every time they appear and cause a massive amount of AFKing as people wait for a better map. Sure people rejoin very rapidly while these maps are playing but they leave even more rapidly. The only times that this isn't true is during peak play times - 1800 to 2300 GMT - when there are lots of SpA members on, many of whom have blatant biases towards these maps.

Just to be clear (as no doubt this will come up), I am not speaking about my personal preference here. Sure I think Nightfall is an abortion of a map and its craetors should be strung up by their gentlemen veg :lol: but I have no issues with Lakeside and Steel. What I am expressing here is the opinion of those who are not present on the forums. Of course you could argue that if they want stuff changed they should get their asses over here and say so, but you have to consider the fact that most of our regulars don't say anything here, if they ever read the forums at all. To that end I would ask that there is not a vote as it will show nothing of any consequence. Those who do not believe me simply need to play more and (more importantly) play when the server isn't 60% full of SpA members - things are very different then.

Last point - you cannot judge the veracity of what I am saying by server population at any given time. A lot for players will stick out a map - maybe even playing properly - but they make it clear in chat that they do so under duress. Quantity of people logged into the server is no indication of the popularity of the map.

(One small caveat - all of these observations reflect only my time on Server 2 as I do not play on Server 1 any more.)

_________________
"Fire rained from the sky on the day I was born: 10,000 lives I ended before drawing first breath. Do not speak to me of guilt or regret, Jonathan.” - Brayan, The Keepers of the Fire


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 10:59 
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[SpA]Howard wrote:
and far too many of the loudest voices on the forum simply do not play TF2 anywhere near enough to have a solid understanding of what the community wants.
agree completely!

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


Last edited by ProtectMyBalls on 16 Mar 2011, 23:21, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 11:07 
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Lord of Minecraft (2894)
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I really don't understand what peoples issue with Steel is either. I didn't like the map when it first came out but it grew on me, and the ability the attacking team has to screw with the defenders by assaulting point E right from the start keeps people on their toes.

If I was honest (and more than a mite cynical) I would suggest that people don;t like the map because it makes them try harder than usual. You can't just grab a sniper point and sit there and you can't just rack up Spy kills from the start (due to the safe zone for the attackers).

_________________
"Fire rained from the sky on the day I was born: 10,000 lives I ended before drawing first breath. Do not speak to me of guilt or regret, Jonathan.” - Brayan, The Keepers of the Fire


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 11:35 
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[SpA]Howard wrote:
I really don't understand what peoples issue with Steel is either. I didn't like the map when it first came out but it grew on me, and the ability the attacking team has to screw with the defenders by assaulting point E right from the start keeps people on their toes.

If I was honest (and more than a mite cynical) I would suggest that people don;t like the map because it makes them try harder than usual. You can't just grab a sniper point and sit there and you can't just rack up Spy kills from the start (due to the safe zone for the attackers).
Very much agree

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


Last edited by ProtectMyBalls on 16 Mar 2011, 23:21, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 12:51 
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Lord of Minecraft (2894)
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[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:
[SpA]Howard wrote:
I really don't understand what peoples issue with Steel is either. I didn't like the map when it first came out but it grew on me, and the ability the attacking team has to screw with the defenders by assaulting point E right from the start keeps people on their toes.

If I was honest (and more than a mite cynical) I would suggest that people don;t like the map because it makes them try harder than usual. You can't just grab a sniper point and sit there and you can't just rack up Spy kills from the start (due to the safe zone for the attackers).
Very much agree, Steel i think has one of the more complex and interesting designs in the game; and your common player just wont get it, unlike the simpler maps like dustbowl where you just have to walk forward etc repeat. On steel, its amazing how 1 scout on E can offer the distraction needed to empty the defences on A (as for some reason it takes 6-8 people to go kill the 1 scout) and in that time, an uber team and a good push can cap A. Equally, a really well organised team can setup base on E quickly, get a demo, sentry and sniper covering the window and spawn door, and then get a shit load of sollys and scouts capping E. Whereas, unfortunately, what is often the case, half of blue will fuck around on B?! and or run straight into sentry and sniper fire by going left on A, rather than having an overwhelming uber push over the hill; plus after capping A, they will normally fuck up B, then just keep going down the the choke to B and getting murdered instead of flanking, it is one of the best maps for flanking! I love steel, and would want to keep it around purely for the fact that every once in a while you will get a team that just thinks for once, and does the map justice - normally i just go medic on blue to get people moving and progressing, but if they fuck around on first cap, ill just give up. :|
You mean it doesn't take 8 people to get that one scout off of point E?! What madness is this of which you speak?!
:lol:
Unfortunately a map with any level of strategic complexity will make the flaws in teamwork of a pub match all the more glaring. That said have you noticed that its not the new or inexperienced players who do dumb-ass things in TF2? Nope - its the people who refuse to play as part of a team. Off they run, 1 or 2 at a time, getting their heads popped by snipers or their legs mown of by the waiting krits'd heavy. Odd little monkeys they are.... but then, you can't educate pork :roll:

_________________
"Fire rained from the sky on the day I was born: 10,000 lives I ended before drawing first breath. Do not speak to me of guilt or regret, Jonathan.” - Brayan, The Keepers of the Fire


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 12:54 
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[SpA]Howard wrote:
you can't educate pork :roll:
I educate powk, with sauwce! 8)

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 13:10 
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Should start prodding some tf2 regulars on the forums, if they don't like something, they can tell us.

Don't understand why people dislike nightfall, well actually it was annoying before it was shortened, but it's not like a dustbowl situation when you can't set a foot out of spawn. Whenever I play its always steel, gravel pit, fastlane, and dustbowl, does the rotation frequent certain maps or something?


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 13:12 
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JuncoPartner wrote:
Should start prodding some tf2 regulars on the forums, if they don't like something, they can tell us.
Exactly. If people start moaning about maps then they should be encouraged to say their bit on the forums. The more feedback we get from regular players the easier it will be to make a final decision.

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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 13:16 
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Feedback can just come straight from the servers and statistics though too.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 13:18 
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[SpA]Howard wrote:
Now I know I am not the most active of TF2'ers out there, but I tend to be on at times when you lot aren't (between 1400 and 1900 GMT) and what I am seeing goes very much against the opinion of a lot of SpA members. All three of the maps I mention will empty the server by 50-80% every time they appear and cause a massive amount of AFKing as people wait for a better map. Sure people rejoin very rapidly while these maps are playing but they leave even more rapidly. The only times that this isn't true is during peak play times - 1800 to 2300 GMT - when there are lots of SpA members on, many of whom have blatant biases towards these maps.
If there are maps that are only good with a large amount of players and there are maps where an unorganized team (which a bunch of anonymous strangers on day time will be) loses interest fast, would it be possible to make the rotation based on the average "characteristics" and number of players on any certain time of the day?
For example, from 14 to 20 o'clock there would be a "day map-list", which includes only the simpler, faster, more basic ones - to get as many new people on board as possible. And from 20 to 01 o'clock there would be an "evening map-list", which includes the longer, more complex maps - where people who know how to play as a team can shine :D.
Also, personally I would find it fun if the map-list turned more fun after 02, including stuff like melee castle etc, because people tend to get tired and bored at about 01-02 and usually fool around more. Just a thought. :)
JuncoPartner wrote:
Whenever I play its always steel, gravel pit, fastlane, and dustbowl, does the rotation frequent certain maps or something?
Yea, it does get a bit repetitive tbh. : / Any chance we could do something more out of the ordinary on the primetime some day? Lol we are a hard crowd. :)


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 13:20 
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Just to give you some insight, this is how the current rotation play's. With this you ofc. also have the user selected maps through spapoints.
Code:
"rotation"
{
	"start"	"cp_badlands"
	"cp_badlands"
	{
		"map"			"cp_badlands"
		"default_nextmap"	"cp_5gorge"
	}
	"cp_5gorge"
	{
		"map"			"cp_5gorge"
		"default_nextmap"	"pl_goldrush"
	}
	"pl_goldrush"
	{
		"map"			"pl_goldrush"
		"default_nextmap"	"cp_dustbowl"
	}
	"cp_dustbowl"
	{
		"map"			"cp_dustbowl"
		"default_nextmap"	"koth_lakeside_final"
	}
	"koth_lakeside_final"
	{
		"map"			"koth_lakeside_final"
		"default_nextmap"	"cp_steel"
	}

	"cp_steel"
	{
		"map"			"cp_steel"
		"default_nextmap"	"pl_badwater"
	}
	"pl_badwater"
	{
		"map"			"pl_badwater"
		"default_nextmap"	"cp_fastlane"
	}
	"cp_fastlane"
	{
		"map"			"cp_fastlane"
		"default_nextmap"	"plr_nightfall_final"
	}
	"plr_nightfall_final"
	{
		"map"			"plr_nightfall_final"
		"default_nextmap"	"cp_coldfront"
	}

	"cp_coldfront"
	{
		"map"			"cp_coldfront"
		"default_nextmap"	"cp_gravelpit"
	}
	"cp_gravelpit"
	{
		"map"			"cp_gravelpit"
		"default_nextmap"	"pl_frontier_final"
	}
	"pl_frontier_final"
	{
		"map"			"pl_frontier_final"
		"default_nextmap"	"cp_granary"
	}

	"cp_granary"
	{
		"map"			"cp_granary"
		"default_nextmap"	"cp_badlands"
	}
}


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 13:25 
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:D

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-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


Last edited by ProtectMyBalls on 16 Mar 2011, 23:23, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 13:30 
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Steel has been a horrible map always. No suprise there.

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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 13:34 
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matude wrote:
Also, personally I would find it fun if the map-list turned more fun after 02, including stuff like melee castle etc, because people tend to get tired and bored at about 01-02 and usually fool around more. Just a thought. :)
I assume you mean server time? Because after about 23:30-00:00 GMT onwards the player count is too small for Attack/defend maps, so it'd be good to have some maps that would work with small numbers.

Was Freight ever tried on the rotation? I've only played it on some ridiculous spammy servers, it looks like it could be a really good map here.


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 13:35 
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DMR rotations is an extremely flexible way of running mapcycles. You can base next maps on the time of day, amount of currently active players etc etc.

anna said she'll have a look at it sometimes soon.

http://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=599464


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 13:37 
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JuncoPartner wrote:
matude wrote:
Also, personally I would find it fun if the map-list turned more fun after 02, including stuff like melee castle etc, because people tend to get tired and bored at about 01-02 and usually fool around more. Just a thought. :)
I assume you mean server time? Because after about 23:30-00:00 GMT onwards the player count is too small for Attack/defend maps, so it'd be good to have some maps that would work with small numbers.

Was Freight ever tried on the rotation? I've only played it on some ridiculous spammy servers, it looks like it could be a really good map here.
It's more of a competitive 6v6 map.

Totally agree about getting some smaller maps for the later hours, would like to request we have some added to the spapoints menu for this time.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 14:08 
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[SpA]annarack wrote:
JuncoPartner wrote:
Should start prodding some tf2 regulars on the forums, if they don't like something, they can tell us.
Exactly. If people start moaning about maps then they should be encouraged to say their bit on the forums. The more feedback we get from regular players the easier it will be to make a final decision.
A fine sentiment, to be sure, but it just isn't going to happen. All the badgering in the world will only prompt a tiny handful of the most devout community players to come here and post, so we cannot rely purely on feedback obtained here.

As to the current rotation, I gotta agree with Balls. Some of those maps need moving apart from each other and I would argue that some of the older maps be put to rest for now (though still available on the points menu, ofc). Dustbowl in particular can turn nightmarish if you do not have balanced and equally skilled teams, resulting in steamrollers or spending the entire map in spawn (yes - I agree - this is down to players not trying, but there it is: we cannot change that).

Matude's idea of varying the rotation against time of day is brilliant and I would be very interested in seeing that set up. The daytime crowd want very different things that the evening crowd.

On a related note, what's with the lack of SpA love for Payload race maps? The only PL map we ever seem to play (ignoring the hideous Nightfall) is Goldrush and I am just sick to the back teeth of it.

_________________
"Fire rained from the sky on the day I was born: 10,000 lives I ended before drawing first breath. Do not speak to me of guilt or regret, Jonathan.” - Brayan, The Keepers of the Fire


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 15:13 
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[SpA]Howard wrote:
On a related note, what's with the lack of SpA love for Payload race maps? The only PL map we ever seem to play (ignoring the hideous Nightfall) is Goldrush and I am just sick to the back teeth of it.
The only payload race maps are pipeline and Nighfall (i think) Goldrush is a payload map, like badwater and upward.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 15:25 
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[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:
[SpA]Howard wrote:
On a related note, what's with the lack of SpA love for Payload race maps? The only PL map we ever seem to play (ignoring the hideous Nightfall) is Goldrush and I am just sick to the back teeth of it.
The only payload race maps are pipeline and Nighfall (i think) Goldrush is a payload map, like badwater and upward.
Yeah, I realised that after I posted. I meant just Payload in general, be they race or otherwise. :ugly:

_________________
"Fire rained from the sky on the day I was born: 10,000 lives I ended before drawing first breath. Do not speak to me of guilt or regret, Jonathan.” - Brayan, The Keepers of the Fire


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 15:31 
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[SpA]Howard wrote:
[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:

The only payload race maps are pipeline and Nighfall (i think) Goldrush is a payload map, like badwater and upward.
Yeah, I realised that after I posted. I meant just Payload in general, be they race or otherwise. :ugly:
well, we only have 2 on rotation at the moment. Upward was taking out of rotation because it's a middle of the road map in terms of popularity and would cause some reduction in numbers sometime; as was thundermountain (which was even more unpopular) both are still in spapoints though.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 15:37 
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[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:
[SpA]Howard wrote:

Yeah, I realised that after I posted. I meant just Payload in general, be they race or otherwise. :ugly:
well, we only have 2 on rotation at the moment. Upward was taking out of rotation because it's a middle of the road map in terms of popularity and would cause some reduction in numbers sometime; as was thundermountain (which was even more unpopular) both are still in spapoints though.
There are 4.


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 15:41 
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I missed out frontier_final payload map.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 15:43 
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[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:
I missed out frontier_final payload map.
Then you're still one short. There are 4 cart maps currently listed in the cycle (as posted above(!))

goldrush
badwater
nightfall
frontier


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 15:46 
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oh, i thought we were just talking payload maps

EDIT: Also i've noticed numbers drop on gravelpit quite often, we should consider reducing the map time, or rounds.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 20:41 
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[SpA]Howard wrote:
Ok. We had a little chat about this and a quick poll a few posts down but the subject has not been addressed. Far too many of our regular players do not come to the forums (or at best do so very infrequently) and far too many of the loudest voices on the forum simply do not play TF2 anywhere near enough to have a solid understanding of what the community wants.
Sorry I'll try and be a bit more active on the forums :D

Tbh I can't see much wrong with Steel, I like it as a map and when there are 2 equal teams it is enjoyable. As for Lakeside and Nightfall, they're ok maps but can get a bit tedious when you play them a lot, so removing them from the rotation but letting them still be available with Spa points is a good idea.


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 21:00 
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We appreciate your feedback luis! :5:

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-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 21:13 
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Steel is just badly designed, it is very unbalanced, especially if you play demo (i.e too easy). I don't especially care about the map rotation now and still think that dustbowl and goldrush are some of the worst maps available :|

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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2011, 23:17 
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If you dislike Goldrush and Dustbowl, then you'll HATE my new custom map, Goldbowl! :D


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 00:11 
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Ok I got a very very strong opinion about this, think I adressed it many times already.
I played tf2 for 3 years every day, filling servers every day... my opinion you got 2 options.

Option 1:
Make a daytime and nighttime difference. Hence make a roulation of only popular maps on downtimes and add some less popular maps on uptimes, this does not have my preverence, but is better then what we have now.

Option 2:
Devide the servers again. Server 2 for example non crits and popular maps. Server 1 for example crits and all maps buyable.
This would get my vote.

Now I get that some maps empty the server. But to be frank, before the pervious 6 months, another (different) very select slim group of people has been filling up servers for over a period of more then 2 years, of wich the last year was struggeling, hanging out on empty servers, melleeing for fun trying to do something untill it got full. And I really detest, but really detest, having to play the same maps over and over and over and over too fill it up. The fact that I was only able to play 3 different maps during my 2,5 year internships of orthopedics really got me so fucking bored that I quit the game for some months.

I am happy to donate financially again and to spent my time filling servers, but I do strongly believe that one of those servels should allow EVERY offical maps to be bought with spa points. I really ennoy the crap out of not being able to practise maps like freight, doublecross and egypt when they are in matches. I really am ennoyed to go on different servers to be able to practise them. I rather then play a different game. I cant play Egypt or Doublecross on our servers, I got to go to lame 24/7 servers to play them. Waiting there for a spot whilest I have a reserves spot on our own, having to go elsewhere whilest I am much more fond of ours, whilest I dontate time and money on it.

So in my view... make the non crit / server one server two whatever its called the popular rotation with only maps buyable that are generally liked and make the other server a server where the rolation might be the same, but where you are at least able to buy all maps that you can play. People that really play this game every day for several hours really dont mind playing different maps non popular maps... they are happy that they get to play something different then freakin goldrush, dusbowl, or badlands ftw!

Finally .
in my view maps are on to long. Loose red and loose blue on dusbowl is next map, you both failed go on. 3 caps on granary or badlands is next map. etc.
They are on too long. I spent doing 7 rounds of granary last time i bought it....
Thats too long. You can only bloody play 2 maps these days in a decent night of playing, and usually you hate at least 1 of those 2. Faster changes. Fail fail move on.

I really hope something is done about it. I know I come across strongly now, but I LOVED this game I really loved it. But I quit this game after 3 years of playing it everyday, because of the simple reason that it was always the same maps and they always where on toooooo freakin long. I spent weeks axing slayer in the face or chopping my boyfriend on the same map every day before going to bed, when of course it was finally full. I love tf2... but atm Its just not the way it used to be and I feel soo annoyed by it that every time I get on I leave after 2 maps.

This of course is my personal and emotional view of a game I really loved.
Feel free to totally disagree with me on every aspect of if... but I'm just explaining why I quit a game that I played so long, that I loved so much and that I actually have artwork hanging of on my walls.
I really miss it... but the way the map rotations are now are not tempting to go trough so much effort filling them up[.

There where times when you could put hydro on but noone would leave, the server was filled with regulars and everyone had fun. the fact is to acieve that you need the people that are actively filling servers back, not that the people that do it now do not do a good job, certainly not saying that, but the group was mere diversed and bigger before.
If you want them back.. you should have all maps buyable and shorter rotation times on at least 1 server.


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 00:29 
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is Wonder Woman (5950)
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Saint and I will be working on some of the ideas that have been put forward. So the more feedback the better. Keep it coming and hopefully we can start to make progress and keep up to date with what people feel would benefit the servers.

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Classy is when a woman has everything to flaunt, but chooses not to show it!


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