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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 00:30 
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Lord of Minecraft (2894)
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Amyl, I think you make a very good point. While we should strive to fill the servers, if we must sacrifice our own enjoyment of the game and drastically limit the rotation so as to include only those few maps that most people are happy to play on then we are probably doing it wrong.

Trouble is, what is the alternative? (I'm really asking here!) TF2 is an old and arguably dying game (yes dying for a long while now, but the herd of players is undoubtedly thinning even more of late) so keeping a consistent enough player base that we can justify the cost of the servers is only going to get harder.

Removing maps from the rotation is quite probably a very bad thing to do. Molly-codling the community and making it so that people don't have to play any map they don't fancy right at the moment will just lead to a lazier and more demanding community. Problem is they are not exactly beating down the door to come play with us so it is not like we can lay the law down too hard either.

I don't know: I really don't. It is going to be a tough needle to thread this; keeping the servers as full as possible while not kowtowing to every whimsy of the players. Unless something happens to suddenly reinvigorate the TF2 community at large then this situation will only worsen.

For now, though, I think we have to encourage the players we know we have, and if that means relegating the less popular maps to the SpA Points menu, then so be it.

(EDIT: Ugh. just noticed that I used a lot of archaic terms and phrases in that post. That'll teach me to post stuff when taking a break halfway through a fairly heavy chapter. yell at me if the above doesn't make sense... :ugly: )

_________________
"Fire rained from the sky on the day I was born: 10,000 lives I ended before drawing first breath. Do not speak to me of guilt or regret, Jonathan.” - Brayan, The Keepers of the Fire


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 00:42 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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I really don't see much benefit in making the servers that much different, if one is empty most of the time.

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-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


Last edited by ProtectMyBalls on 16 Mar 2011, 23:24, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 04:30 
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Has no REAL life! (2026)
By having fewer maps (albiet good or bad) people will bore of the game quicker. Or so logic dictates.

Now obviously it's flawed as we are talking of a few hours play at a time; but in the longer scheme of things, we will keep a player playing for longer overall by having more options than by thinning out the options.

That said, most CS servers survived on 24/7 aztec/dust/dust 2/office. Or on fat mods like UWC3 or Wc3/ gungame etc.

Perhaps just make 1 server a normal server with all the trimming and all the options (except crits) and 1 a critz 24 hour 3-4 map rotation server (or even just 1 map)

/2cents


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nl 
 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 09:28 
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Has no REAL life! (2359)
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no

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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 09:45 
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[SpA]Greasy_greabo wrote:
By having fewer maps (albiet good or bad) people will bore of the game quicker. Or so logic dictates.

Now obviously it's flawed as we are talking of a few hours play at a time; but in the longer scheme of things, we will keep a player playing for longer overall by having more options than by thinning out the options.

That said, most CS servers survived on 24/7 aztec/dust/dust 2/office. Or on fat mods like UWC3 or Wc3/ gungame etc.

Perhaps just make 1 server a normal server with all the trimming and all the options (except crits) and 1 a critz 24 hour 3-4 map rotation server (or even just 1 map)

/2cents
The current rotation has been boiled down over the last 8 or so months to what I have recognised my monitoring player feedback and how the numbers react, to a decent selection of maps which are all reasonably popular and will always maintain a larger majority of players. To mix up this rotation, spa members then use spapoints to pick other maps to break the cycle and inject some variation. If we have all maps then the amount of spapoints used to buy maps will decrease significantly. Case and point; we put the new version of Yukon onto rotation a month or two ago, and people were fine with it for a week because it was new and shiny; but after a week, the minute it came on numbers would drop, because it wasn't a well loved map by the mass majority. We should really cater for our player base, and not ourselves because they are the ones filling our servers, and not SpA. Speaking as someone who is on it pretty much every evening for a good few hours, there are only approximately 3-4 spa members who join in a 5 hour period.

If you want more variation, it could be suggestible to just add more maps to the spapoints night and day lists, or just have one list.

/2cents

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 10:20 
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Lord of Minecraft (2894)
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This argument is becoming circular and people are just turning up to reiterate exactly what has already been said.

We all agree we need to attract players but we also have to accept that the number of available players is limited. The issue is that reducing the number of maps too far will have exactly the same effect of driving players away.

Making the rotation small and putting the rest in the points menu is a good idea, but only if we do not take it too far. Most people don't bother to buy maps and those that do tend to buy the same obvious choices over and over.

More over there is categorically a line between giving the community the things it wants and allowing the community to dictate what happens. Saint understands this well enough and has not been pushed around by the community before. We need to work to promote new maps and make people give them a chance. People are too quick to assume that because they had a bad game on the map, it was the maps fault. This is very rarely the case.

Final point - too many voices in these threads are those that do not play the damned game any more. Sorry and all but having been a regular on ours or any other server in the past means fuck all right here right now. Things change and unless you understand what is currently driving the game and its community then feel free to butt out :18

_________________
"Fire rained from the sky on the day I was born: 10,000 lives I ended before drawing first breath. Do not speak to me of guilt or regret, Jonathan.” - Brayan, The Keepers of the Fire


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nl 
 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 10:32 
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anna and me will run through the entire mapcycle, spapoints etc etc. soon. We just need some time (bit busy with me house move).


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 10:40 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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[SpA]Howard wrote:
Making the rotation small and putting the rest in the points menu is a good idea, but only if we do not take it too far. Most people don't bother to buy maps and those that do tend to buy the same obvious choices over and over.
But the rotation is small atm!
[SpA]Howard wrote:
Final point - too many voices in these threads are those that do not play the damned game any more. Sorry and all but having been a regular on ours or any other server in the past means fuck all right here right now. Things change and unless you understand what is currently driving the game and its community then feel free to butt out :18
Couldn't agree more.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 10:52 
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Lord of Minecraft (2894)
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[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:
[SpA]Howard wrote:
Making the rotation small and putting the rest in the points menu is a good idea, but only if we do not take it too far. Most people don't bother to buy maps and those that do tend to buy the same obvious choices over and over.
But the rotation is small atm?

Ok, making it smaller then :wink: . I phrased that badly as its not really what I meant. I essentially think there are maps that should be ditched is all and I am probably over-selling my personal preference.

Simple fact is that the maps I listed way back in the mists of time at the start of this thread can kill the server stone dead. The problem is that this is not always true. Last night for example everyone bitched and moaned that I picked (albeit accidentally) Freight from the points menu, but screw me if everyone didn't stick around and have a bloody good game.

The idea of this thread was to instigate a review of the current rotation, something I have already achieved. Beyond that, though, we really need to be more brave and put some other maps out there. Playing the same tired crap over and over again will drive people away just as easily as a bad map in the rotation.

_________________
"Fire rained from the sky on the day I was born: 10,000 lives I ended before drawing first breath. Do not speak to me of guilt or regret, Jonathan.” - Brayan, The Keepers of the Fire


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 11:02 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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[SpA]Howard wrote:
[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:

But the rotation is small atm?

Ok, making it smaller then :wink: . I phrased that badly as its not really what I meant. I essentially think there are maps that should be ditched is all and I am probably over-selling my personal preference.

Simple fact is that the maps I listed way back in the mists of time at the start of this thread can kill the server stone dead. The problem is that this is not always true. Last night for example everyone bitched and moaned that I picked (albeit accidentally) Freight from the points menu, but screw me if everyone didn't stick around and have a bloody good game.

The idea of this thread was to instigate a review of the current rotation, something I have already achieved. Beyond that, though, we really need to be more brave and put some other maps out there. Playing the same tired crap over and over again will drive people away just as easily as a bad map in the rotation.
That is fair enough, I for one like pretty much all maps anyway because i like variation and i can just get on with it and find a class to make it enjoyable. I just don't want to see our player base decline again.

side note, is that the current freight? im just concerned people will be downloading the old one :S

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 11:08 
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Lord of Minecraft (2894)
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[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:
[SpA]Howard wrote:


Ok, making it smaller then :wink: . I phrased that badly as its not really what I meant. I essentially think there are maps that should be ditched is all and I am probably over-selling my personal preference.

Simple fact is that the maps I listed way back in the mists of time at the start of this thread can kill the server stone dead. The problem is that this is not always true. Last night for example everyone bitched and moaned that I picked (albeit accidentally) Freight from the points menu, but screw me if everyone didn't stick around and have a bloody good game.

The idea of this thread was to instigate a review of the current rotation, something I have already achieved. Beyond that, though, we really need to be more brave and put some other maps out there. Playing the same tired crap over and over again will drive people away just as easily as a bad map in the rotation.
That is fair enough, I for one like pretty much all maps anyway because i like variation and i can just get on with it and find a class to make it enjoyable. I just don't want to see our player base decline again.
I am fine with most of them too. The only exceptions are Nightfall ('cos it is just plain retarded) and granary/Goldrush ('cos I am sick of the dammed sight of them).
[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:
side note, is that the current freight? im just concerned people will be downloading the old one :S
Nope, it's still the old version. This was mentioned a long while ago (when we played it in Beta Bunnies) but nothing changed.

_________________
"Fire rained from the sky on the day I was born: 10,000 lives I ended before drawing first breath. Do not speak to me of guilt or regret, Jonathan.” - Brayan, The Keepers of the Fire


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 11:17 
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Has no REAL life! (1669)
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So when will you finally add map voting at the end of a round?


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 11:25 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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Dekar wrote:
So when will you finally add map voting at the end of a round?
not a terrible suggestion; but i don't think we are allowed voting systems, but it would allow the server base to control their own sessions.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 11:26 
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Lord of Minecraft (2894)
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Dekar wrote:
So when will you finally add map voting at the end of a round?
Depends how it would be configured. If it means we get the same dammed map 17 times an hour then I hope we never implement it. If it can be sorted so that we get a good variation of maps then I'm all for it. (I've seen it work on other servers well enough so I don't see why it shouldn't be considered.)

_________________
"Fire rained from the sky on the day I was born: 10,000 lives I ended before drawing first breath. Do not speak to me of guilt or regret, Jonathan.” - Brayan, The Keepers of the Fire


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nl 
 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 11:29 
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Dekar wrote:
So when will you finally add map voting at the end of a round?
Never.


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 11:32 
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Lord of Minecraft (2894)
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[SpA]SaintK wrote:
Dekar wrote:
So when will you finally add map voting at the end of a round?
Never.
I gotta ask: why? If it takes the strain out of running the server then what is the harm?

_________________
"Fire rained from the sky on the day I was born: 10,000 lives I ended before drawing first breath. Do not speak to me of guilt or regret, Jonathan.” - Brayan, The Keepers of the Fire


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 11:35 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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[SpA]Howard wrote:
Dekar wrote:
So when will you finally add map voting at the end of a round?
Depends how it would be configured. If it means we get the same dammed map 17 times an hour then I hope we never implement it. If it can be sorted so that we get a good variation of maps then I'm all for it. (I've seen it work on other servers well enough so I don't see why it shouldn't be considered.)
from the ones i've seen, they normally vary the offerings to 4-5 maps which also alternate every vote, so you can't pick dustbowl every vote etc.
Quote:
I gotta ask: why? If it takes the strain out of running the server then what is the harm?
i think it means people wont use spapoints to change the map

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 11:39 
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[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:
Quote:
I gotta ask: why? If it takes the strain out of running the server then what is the harm?
i think it means people wont use spapoints to change the map
Unless we used the SpA points to power the voting system, as in it takes 5 SpA points to cast a vote?

_________________
"Fire rained from the sky on the day I was born: 10,000 lives I ended before drawing first breath. Do not speak to me of guilt or regret, Jonathan.” - Brayan, The Keepers of the Fire


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 11:43 
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I'm against any form of re-occurring votes at the servers, it's the most annoying thing ever and won't ever get used or implemented at spa servers.


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 11:48 
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Lord of Minecraft (2894)
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[SpA]SaintK wrote:
I'm against any form of re-occurring votes at the servers, it's the most annoying thing ever and won't ever get used or implemented at spa servers.
Fair enough and I respect your opinion, although I disagree with it, and not to stick my head in the lions mouth but I feel I should point out the obvious: you don't play TF2 any more, mate, so why would you care that much?

_________________
"Fire rained from the sky on the day I was born: 10,000 lives I ended before drawing first breath. Do not speak to me of guilt or regret, Jonathan.” - Brayan, The Keepers of the Fire


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 11:48 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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[SpA]Howard wrote:
[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:


i think it means people wont use spapoints to change the map
Unless we used the SpA points to power the voting system, as in it takes 5 SpA points to cast a vote?
hmm, maybe, but you gotta remember that a good percentage of the people on the server are casual players and wont know of the spapoints system or be signed up, which will mean only a small percent will be able to vote.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 11:49 
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Lord of Minecraft (2894)
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[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:
[SpA]Howard wrote:

Unless we used the SpA points to power the voting system, as in it takes 5 SpA points to cast a vote?
hmm, maybe, but you gotta remember that a good percentage of the people on the server are casual players and wont know of the spapoints system or be signed up, which will mean only a small percent will be able to vote.
In which case only a small number of people use the SpA points at all so what the hell does it matter?! :?

_________________
"Fire rained from the sky on the day I was born: 10,000 lives I ended before drawing first breath. Do not speak to me of guilt or regret, Jonathan.” - Brayan, The Keepers of the Fire


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 11:51 
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[SpA]Howard wrote:
[SpA]SaintK wrote:
I'm against any form of re-occurring votes at the servers, it's the most annoying thing ever and won't ever get used or implemented at spa servers.
Fair enough and I respect your opinion, although I disagree with it, and not to stick my head in the lions mouth but I feel I should point out the obvious: you don't play TF2 any more, mate, so why would you care that much?
I never play games too much.

And I care because I run this community partly based off my own vision, regardless if I play the game or not. (Most games we have hosted I have not owned or barely played, compared to the rest).


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 11:52 
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[SpA]Howard wrote:
[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:

hmm, maybe, but you gotta remember that a good percentage of the people on the server are casual players and wont know of the spapoints system or be signed up, which will mean only a small percent will be able to vote.
In which case only a small number of people use the SpA points at all so what the hell does it matter?! :?
i don't know :S i only use my spapoints to avoid crap maps, after all my donations and getting points from the server, i dont mind spending them to mix up the cycle when im on the server.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 11:53 
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Lord of Minecraft (2894)
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[SpA]SaintK wrote:
[SpA]Howard wrote:

Fair enough and I respect your opinion, although I disagree with it, and not to stick my head in the lions mouth but I feel I should point out the obvious: you don't play TF2 any more, mate, so why would you care that much?
I never play games too much.

And I care because I run this community partly based off my own vision, regardless if I play the game or not. (Most games we have hosted I have not owned or barely played, compared to the rest).

And again, that is fair enough. I just think it is a shame to reject an option that could help in our current situation, but I understand your position. Consider the subject dropped.

_________________
"Fire rained from the sky on the day I was born: 10,000 lives I ended before drawing first breath. Do not speak to me of guilt or regret, Jonathan.” - Brayan, The Keepers of the Fire


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nl 
 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 12:00 
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[SpA]Howard wrote:
[SpA]SaintK wrote:

I never play games too much.

And I care because I run this community partly based off my own vision, regardless if I play the game or not. (Most games we have hosted I have not owned or barely played, compared to the rest).

And again, that is fair enough. I just think it is a shame to reject an option that could help in our current situation, but I understand your position. Consider the subject dropped.
It's one of the few things that are not up for discussion. I hate voting from the bottom of my heart - an experience kind of thing.


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 12:39 
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Has no REAL life! (2359)
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He means "hate" btw.

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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 12:46 
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[SpA]Crovax20 wrote:
He means "hate" btw.
Oups, corrected 8)


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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 15:35 
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is Wonder Woman (5950)
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There are some good ideas forming here. When I have more time, i.e. not at work, I will note down the good ideas. Once saintK and I have some spare time we shall see what we can do to get these ideas rolling.

May I suggest that whatever we do that we give it a trial of a few weeks or so and then report back as to whether it was a +ve or a -ve.

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 Post subject: Re: The Map Rotation
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2011, 15:50 
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[SpA]annarack wrote:
There are some good ideas forming here. When I have more time, i.e. not at work, I will note down the good ideas. Once saintK and I have some spare time we shall see what we can do to get these ideas rolling.

May I suggest that whatever we do that we give it a trial of a few weeks or so and then report back as to whether it was a +ve or a -ve.
Sounds good to me, may suggest though that we report back after 1 week of live testing, just because i really dont want to go through that long process of inviting people back again and creating fill teams again if there are issues that drive away the player base.

Look forward to seeing the proposed solution :)

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


Last edited by ProtectMyBalls on 16 Mar 2011, 16:02, edited 1 time in total.

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