So, what you guys think about this period of recession we're in? Or are we already calling it a depression?

I seriously doubt giving Greece so much money is in any way a smart plan with a good outcome. Next to that, what are we gonna do when Spain sinks into the same pit? Or one of the other countries that are on the brink of having some real money problems. Like our own country or all the other EU countries will have if you give it enough time. (to translate a dutch saying: the lame helps the blind).
I've been to greece, one of the islands, one time and although it was one time, that one time was enough to convince me there was a lot of corruption in the country and to me, it seemed that most of that corruption was to be found in parliament, do we expect that to change after they got a wake up call like this? We've recently changed the legal pension age to 67 instead of 65 while in greece (so far i've heard, don't know what is actually true or how it actually works) you can stop working at the age of 53 Wouldn't Greece be helped a lot more if they get help in cleaning out there country of the crooked thieves on high positions? Help in how to manage a country without the rich ppl getting more and more and the poor ppl getting but fucked time after time?
Next to that, I seriously don't see this ending with Greece tbh, spain is almost as far fucked as Greece atm and there are a lot of other countries that'll follow.

The only thing you accomplish through most of the social aid in the form that it's given out today is that a country or ppl from a country get the knowledge that when they fuck up enough, there will sure be someone who comes and save them...
So, are we just gonna wait? Give parliaments a chance to steel some more of the poor and let their own earnings be as crooked as it always has been?

There ain't another country that pays more to brussels then the Netherlands. Also, in the EU, there ain't another country that levies so much taxes as the Netherlands but in the mean time, we're getting less and less back for it. It seems like we're paying for our own shit and now, we're even gonna pay for someone else's shit
At least, if you live in another country, you're probably having the same shit as here, but you're not paying as much money to that economical pit of death as we as inhabitants of the Netherlands are. This pisses me off. I don't dislike helping others, it's even my job which I like and I'm planning on doing a lot more helping when I finally move out of this country, but tbh, where do these countries get the money to help out another country? Our social care system is slowly dying for years now but now, it's even degraded that far that prisonners have it better then the old folks in retirement homes
Next to that, I really don't see the point in adding more water to a broken bucket...

Would getting all our own coins back solve anything as well? I seriously think we should try and ban all corruption from parliaments or just get corrupted ourselves. To me, nowadays, it seems like stupid if you don't stick it to the man in some way. Not paying your taxes, cheating on your tax refunds, whatever, but what about contributing to the economical problems then? Would you have given up then? Or what about catching a social aid income while your perfectly fine to work in a macdonalds for instance? Hey, I know, it ain't fun, but if you're not fysically or mentally ill, doesn't it seem wrong to catch a social income? Don't get me wrong, I got a social income for a while as well for being sick, where the officials around me told me I didn't belong there but in the mean time didn't do jack shit to help me in any way. I'm not against this, but there are a lot of ppl unemployed right now but there's still a ton of jobs still waiting for ppl to go do them.

Systems are seriously broken and fucked up atm and to me, it seems like we're contributing more and more to the downfall of the systems instead of helping them in any way. Can we give up? Can I stick it to the man in any way I can? Call in sick for a year, find another job and when I'm past my trial, call in sick for another year again? Cheat on my tax refunds, fill in anything I think I can get away with? Do some jobs and don't pay tax on those? I sure as hell would like to
Then again, I think I rather move to a country where you don't have to pay as many taxes as we do, you'll be under a lot more risk when you lose your job or get permanently sick or anything, but then again, you're probably gonna get everything you earn and can fix your shit yourself. Like now, I'm paying about 40 percent taxes on everything I make I'm paying for public television and idiots in parliament for instance, I'm a bit done with this tbfh. I could well use the spare time to smoke weed and study (which doesn't work at the same time), get myself a social income as well We've recently adjusted a law in this that says that you can't decline a job more then twice, you gotta fill in at least 2 job applications a week, etc.
Just fill in job applications for jobs you're sure not to get and voila, all is done Next to that, in these times, you only have to fill in an e-mail to actually apply for a job, seems like easy money... Not that you'll feel satisfied for long.
I seriously don't know for what I'm doing it all anymore and I'm even a big slacker, I'm not even one of those 40 hour work week fuckers (or more), or one of those workaholics. Seriously, what the fuck are we all doing atm?
Long live our feudal monetary systems, this is really the future yeah

( don't feel offended by anything I said here, just trying to address some issues )

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M.A.S.K. , is the mighty power that can save the day

Southern Europe is pretty much fucked.

Here, it's business-as-usual

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<@Howard_s> usa just has a made up economy - they can't really go broke

JuncoPartner: I could barely hold it up for long.

If a country runs out of money, and no one pitches in any to help it out, would it go bankrupt? What would happen with it then? :o

Otherwise I raised an eye-brow when they get pension at the age of 53 in Greece when I heard the news here in Sweden talk about it. It also brought up the subject about the gap between the rich and poor which seemed to be very much larger than necessary with lowered taxed for rich people :(
In the same news report they also said that the people had to cut down on café visits and cook more food at home, instead of eating out all the time. True or not, it creates an image of a rather relaxed and laid back people, but given the situation Greece now finds herself in, it seems to be more true than not :/

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"There is a simple, logical explanation... and there is nothing under the bed.”

Taxes are a transferable payment system, in which public expenditure pays for itself, and then it is used.

Welfare is run at a rate which is in line with all other expenditure in all countries, it is only this transfer of payments which make people think it is balloning out of proportion. State run welfare is the best option out of all the others, insurance or semi assisted. State run welfare allows correct job allocation from unemployment benefits, because if you employ someone skilled as an electrician as a call centre employee your losing the skills built via education and courses which is wasting not only original expenditure but lowering your employment skill levels within the country.
Health care has other free benefits as well, for example, giving medical care and assistance to lower paid jobs and in fact all jobs allows people who cannot otherwise afford it to still be part of the economy and still function as part of the workforce.

People look at parliament's as corrupt but most, most, go into politics to help, with policies and views that they feel will improve the country in one way or another. For example in the UK, Labour - semi-socialist and semi - economist polices for the masses, Conservatives - Private economy, little state intervention on the free market and wealth distribution from the top down, Lib-Dems - well anything the others arent. They get paid little in comparison to what they need to spend originally for campaigns, and in comparison to what most of politicians are educated for. Most politicians in the UK could earn a 60-100k salary and earn just over 30.

The problem with the Euro is, that if one crashes hard, all the rest will begin to suffer and follow the direction - Just like the sterling was so closely linked with the dollar - but for the Euro it is worse. The central policies mean that you have to either fuck the guys who are economically dying and support the midlevel/high level euro country with polcies to preserve this, or to go to their level and reduce your own currency valuation.
It is the problem with a central government in the EU as well, as it creates policies which are bad for some, and great for others as all countries in the EU are vaired, by economic progress, climate, industrial proportion and capabilities.

Basically, all you can do it weather it, or go to seperate currencies - which will still hurt trade to begin with. But as far as my knowledge goes, the Euro will have a longer and possibly deeper recession that the stirling did.

My 200cents

Problem being if we let those countries fall, the euro will fall and you can say bye bye EU and Euro. Something like that would mean a very big and long global recession. It would be credit crunch but then with hell frozen over.

Oh and Greece parliament now changed the pension age to 65.

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

To enter it... there where strong demands, yet if someone is naughty and does not stick to them we sent them a bag of coins, again with some demands, whilest we already know they wont stick to them and we will not hold them to any repercussions (since we have given that responsibility away and moved it to the states to an organisation who could not give a rats ass), therefore ultimately it will end up to be a gift.

This idea was supposed to make us a stronger union, not to support the weakest link. To many countries who do not have their shit in order joined in on it, corrupt countries that cannot manage their finances. I say out with them. It should not be an indefinite luxury to be part. I mean seriously... its not like you cannot see this comming if you spent and spent and spent. Its different if one cannot help it, but seriously, this is a mess they have created themselves and we reward them for it. If you dont play by the rules then dont play at all.

This is patching up a wound that's rotting underneath, its useless. I say dont give it for that reason alone, but if we must, then make sure demands are met first then sent money and no longer the other way round.

Same goes for Iceland... you dont want to pay back what you owe because your folks dont want it? Of course they dont... duh. So now our population is paying for it twice? What happend to a deal is a deal? Then get ur boats the hell out of our waters and go find fish around ur own icy island. I suggest we claim every boat of them that arrives in Rotterdam and sell those.

... And i know i seem harsh now, but why make agreements and not stick to them, not even being ashamed of doing so, but just doing so for you know there are no consequenses. Thats just shitty.

I don't want to seem rude but you peeps should really read a bit more about the EU. There is no base or mechanism with which a country, any country, can be kicked out of it once it's in. I'm not saying it's right, just that this is the way it is. And when you factor in the codecision mechanism that is in place for law projects..well, talking about kicking countries is just silly. And don't talk about Greece like it's a new member, it's been one since 1981. It's economical crisys has nothing to do with the Eastern Block memberships and the huge loans those mean. It has however everything to do with bad management. Corruption on the other hand is everywhere, either you call it lobbying or not. It's just that governments come with more or less productive, yet corrupt, systems.

Besides, I don't know who you dutchies are voting for, I've been to a conference with the dutch ambassador here just last month and he had quite a different view on how loans and the eu should work. (as opposed to what i'm reading here ofc)

Anyway, bottom line is that the EU has set itself like a hippie monarchy. And we will have to deal with it, at least for the time being.

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Comfortably Numb

You know what worked?

No trade restrictions within the EU countries.

You know what doesn't?

The belief that the EU can run as anything other than an economical facilitator for countries; everything else has been about idealogical and political prestige more than actual sense.

The euro is and was a bad economic idea base more on political prestige and "togetherness" than actual economic sense, the increased political powers of brussels was a bad idea and the EU as a political and not an economic force is a bad idea!

Im pretty central in my politics, but the EU (the institution) is just terribad.

Don't mix the EU up with the Euro. They actually quite different.

The uk is part of the EU but we are not part if the euro.

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The stats below lie. I'm actually much much worse.

Im not mixing anything up Jedi,

The EU (formerly the ECC) are the political organisation which is the "super structure" over Europe, or the states within it, with powers which take soveriegnty away from nation states and give it to one central organisation. The one our MEP (members of european parliament) are a part of. However without consitutional links and poor representation nation states are often lumped with the bad as others are lumped with the good - an example of this being the agricultural laws passed by the French due to their weight in the EU, while it damaged british farmers markets.

The Euro is an "economic" policy brought foward by the EU, however it is and was a political tool used for the prestige and meldeing of the european states into this "super structure".

The actual economic problems with the Euro in an area as diverse as Europe with many different stages of economic development, agendas for policy, need for national currency control to make favourable internal economic situations make for something of a joke, the political implications around it and the EU mean that the whole Euro-countries will fall into a slump deeper than that of the UK, for longer.
When Spain needs Financial supporting policies and a lower rate of interest on the Euro, Germany needs something different and the whole system will fall down.

So no... Im not mixing up the EU and the Euro, the EU is mixing itself up as a political organisation with political policies such as the Euro when it could and would only work as an economic one.

Wasn't meaning you Greasy - sorry.


Greece joined the euro in 2000, but has been a member of the eu since 1981. There are been some articles that have questioned whether Greece was strong enough to join the euro when it did, but hindsight is a easy.

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The stats below lie. I'm actually much much worse.

We aren't giving money to Greece. We are giving them a loan against a 5% interest rate, while at least Germany & Netherlands loan this money from the capital market at 3'ish %. So in the end you are getting a profit, if they aren't stupid and turn it into a gift eventually. The current "rescue" plan is necessary because if Greece falls the Euro will fall, and that will create a second deep global recession probably even worse then the credit crunch did. So the fund that has been set up now to prevent other countries from not being able to pay their debts will come mostly from the pockets of the rich EU countries who do have their stuff sorted properly. However this money is only being made available if neccesary, its basically a plan to prevent speculation taking place and nobody really expects that it will really come to having to pay these billions.

Now when the Euro launched the plan was that there would be a "punishment clause" which would be handles by EU officials and not the ministers of finance of the different countries. Somehow however the would become a could and now we got a situation where the children are in charge of punishing eachother . Thats the reason the IMF is added to the fund, they got a track record of making sure that stuff gets done proper, unlike the EU (Who thought having the kids punish eachother for misbehaviour would work).

Now nobody wants to loan money to greece or spain, but they are forced to because like I said earlier, if they go bankrupt then the euro will have its deathsentence signed and we can expect a massive recession on a scale that will probably equal or be even worse then the credit crunch. This problem is bigger then the Euro countries alone, this concerns the whole EU and the whole world. Just look at the pound, the euro is falling compared to the dollar but not compared to the pound. The pound is also taking a dive just like the Euro is compared to the dollar. So if anyone in the UK thinks they will be safe because they don't have the Euro, think again. Besides the fact that the UK got one of the biggest deficits in the EU compared to other EU countries.

The one thing that could happen is a super Euro, where it is decided to stop the EU project with a lot of countries and have a super Euro. Basically back to zero with only the German speaking countries, the Benelux, the UK, scandinavian countries and France.

Right now we see doubt enter the market again, because the European central bank has gotten the ability to use a blanq cheque and is now allowed to use it and people are afraid for hyperinflation in the EU zone, because they are not sure wether the European central bank will actively try to reduce the money in the system. So we are entering another stress period, and I am not sure what politicians can do about all of this anymore. It seems whatever they think of works for a couple of days and then doubt creeps back into the market. I am afraid we haven't seen the last of this and we, the countries that didn't cheat, will have to pay the price for the cheaters down south.

I really can't understand why the greeks are demonstrating against the goverments spending cuts. They say they didn't cheat, but their goverment did... yet they fucking could go with pension when they were 53 and got like 2 months of extra pay each year and loads of other things... seriously wtf, everyone could see thats pretty much a recipe for disaster. When Greece joined the Euro it was a political act, not backed up by any financial base. Actually Greece didn't really comply with any of the requirements to join the Euro. But hey it was good karma for the Politicians, so they did it.

I really hope some people in the EU will scratch their head and stop thinking about constantly expanding the EU. Sort out business within the EU first and then think about expanding again in a year or 200. Those "other" countries that want to join can form their own union, or join Russia.

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

This is wrong

The Euro crashing will adversely affect all euro countries and anyone deeply involved in their financial markets.

The Pound crashed as the dollar crashed, due to the deep involvement between the two currencies, the pound is rising as the dollar is now, while the euro is falling.

The UK's deficit means shit, in fact all deficits mean shit - the only way to kick start any economy is by spending, and to worry about deficit atm is going to stagnate economies. Everyone lives in deficit, how do you think people pay for cars, houses? Its affordable debt.

Overall, the Euro when (not if) it crashes will damage the local single currency, due to its trade links with, you guessed it - itself... as it crashes the dollar will rise as it becomes the "stock currency" once again, as it will be most trusted in the market - (while during the dollar crash the Euro was being bought in large quantities overseas to protect investments, hence why the Euro will have a delayed crash) - and with that the pound will also rise, albeit not so quickly.

Seriously, I see single currencies back in operation in 10 years tops, or a huge 5-10 year recession in the whole euro zone....

And dw Jedi, its cool

We will soon get the DM back

Euro dropped from 1.40+ to 1.24 compared to the Dollar. Euro compared to the pound went from 0.85-86 to 0.83. I buy a lot of stuff from the UK and the pound has hardly gone up against the Euro. So its pretty safe for me to assume that the pound hasn't risen that much against the dollar . I think its time the UK realizes they haven't been anywhere near the world most important economy for the past 5 decades, if not longer (I edited this in just for Saint)

And the whole world is deep in Euro zone financial markets

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

The UK rises in a delayed reaction to the dollar, as you can see from exactly what you said...

The pound will never be as high as the dollar, but will rise as the Euro falls, not fall as the Euro falls...
The UK isnt the worlds most important economy, hence why it rises and falls with the dollar - as it is full of floating money in the economic centre of dollar reserves.
Also the if you actually look at market size to economic manufacturing, as well as post war reconstruction and industrial restructuring in mainland europe due to the devastation caused by WWII you can see why economies like Germany, Netherlands, France all made huge gains so quickly - there is nothing that will kick start any economy like rebuilding and restructuring. For market size, the UK actually was and still is a top contender in the manufacturing economy, which is about 10% of the UKs economy anyway, unlike say germanys 40%. Please talk more about the last 5 decades of British economy in relation to the World, its basically free revision for me.

The Euro rised as the dollar fell because these reserves, which all major countries and companies hold - and the Stock market, started to invest in the Euro as the dollar collapsed, however with the re-rise of the dollar, market confidence is back there, so Euro is being replaced with the dollar once again - hence why the Euro will now fall, which will cause a spiral in the weakest Euro countries which will cause a massive recession across the whole zone, as inflation and interest rates are all central.

The Economic world consists of reserves and market profits - The euro falls the companies sell to higher profit gainers - Reserves of euros fall, people replace it with dollars or other strong currencies - The Euro is not a strong currency and has only grown prior to this due to the collapse of the dollar. At the moment you will find the Euro will look to begin to recover due to the bail out deal to greece, which restored some market confidence, but how long will it last? Eventually there wont be any ability to bail out the multiple countries on the economic brink and bai bai Euro.

Once again , the simple fact remains that a single currency for a diverse multi-governance organisation which was a move of politics and not economics doesn't work.

Sebas,

I am not pretending that Greece is a new EU country, but I do think that it should have not joined in on the Euro the first place or there should have been very strong consequenses to them not sticking to agreements. If you spent more then is allowed and let things get out of hand why should you be rewarded, this is no accidental mess! No, you cannot kick a country out, that does not mean it should not be possible to do so. Why is that silly? Every action should have a consequense? In my opinion its not the loan, but the system in general that makes them unfit to be part. Remember how the world fell over Germany a few years ago, when they had not been playing by the rules? Why should we treat this any different?

Also, with all due respect, its fucking easy not to complain when you are not the one paying? Your country is not on the list as far as I can see, and considering the fact that even countries als Malta and Cyprus are on it, I conclude that you dont contribute at all? That would not be weird, since you just got 20 billion from the resque belt yourselves, may I add without sticking to the strings it came with?

That aside, Slovenia is already refusing to pay their part, wich is only millions not billions? Us 'dutchies' pay almost 300 euro's per head, that is 1200 euros for an avararage family! Just to compare for each head (with thanks to nonoice for the calculations); germany 275, france 250, italy 240, spain 220, belgium 250, austria 280, poland 180, finland 180, ireland 210, luxemburg 420 (poor migu, poor migu someone should sent him some free spapoints).

And yes, corruption is everywhere, yet the extent differs quite a lot. Seriously, Greece, Romenia and Bulgaria are the most corrupt countries in the EU according to the Corruption Perceptions Index of CPI. And 'us dutchies' how you refer to them, are in place 6 of least corrupt of the whole fucking globe. That is simply a huge difference and it will not be explained by the concept of lobby.

So to conclude the benelux (belgium, luxemburg, netherlands) pays freakin most to the EU in the first place for each head of their population, and they pay most each head for this resque plan. That is not some story to comply how great I think we are, but more that many of us feel it is unfair that we pay such a shitload for each head of the population on so many accounts, whilest richer countries around us pay less. It does give us the right to be very reluctant to contribute to this loan, knowing that the chances of getting any back are very slim and the chance of anything structurally changing are dissapointing at most, when looking at other resque plans like Romenia's. I think most 'dutchies' feel that this is unfair, that we pay an unbalanced price and that it will not matter shit anyways and should rather be spent on other countries. And when you have to pay 300 euro's yourself... I doubt you would be jumping the fence.

Woop an image to make the data accessible:

And reference to corruption index:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_index

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MOV AH, 02
INT 21

I meant 'dutchies' as a friendly diminutive, I don't understand why you would take offense in it and quote it like that.

Thing is that we cannot discuss economy from the perspective of our own pockets. If we do it like that then we will do nothing but follow to our own. No, I don't know what getting taxed 300 euros is like, then again in my home town nobody but the mayor and private owners make that kind of money each month. You see, if we take economy subjectively we will not achieve anything constructive. You will say you don't like giving away that much cash to the poor, I say then come be one and see the other side of the story and so on. It's pointless to discuss it like this since we're both right in our own ways.

Fact of the matter is that the EU is doing a shitty job at controlling their investment. That's what the Eastern block is, an investment, not charity. The Eastern block has natural resources, a vast market, manpower and so on. Help them bounce back so they can then contribute back. Greece was a mistake, and learning from it is very important. Kicking them while they're down woun't help.

As for corruption, yes, that's very true. It's what the lack of education and poorness does. You don't give the man a fish, you teach him how to fish. So it will take my generation and probably another one to see that corruption go down. And the only reason this will happen is because my generation is raised European. We study abroad, we travel abroad, we have the access to information and so on and it's all thanks to the EU and a bunch of other countries. You might not take any comfort in it personally since you're also paying for it in some way, but in the larger scheme, it's amazing.

Empathy is a bitch, either way. The last thing the world needs however is educated countries sticking to their own and turning their backs.

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Comfortably Numb

SaintK was right

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

Way to add to the discussion there Crovax.

I meant 'dutchies' as a friendly diminutive, I don't understand why you would take offense in it and quote it like that.
I did not take offence at all... I did not intent it to come over that way either.

Thing is that we cannot discuss economy from the perspective of our own pockets.

I'm sorry but thats where you are wrong, that is exactly what this topic is about, plz reread bucky's story.

You will say you don't like giving away that much cash to the poor, I say then come be one and see the other side of the story and so on. It's pointless to discuss it like this since we're both right in our own ways.

I think this statement is bullocks for I have not stated nor suggested this. I have been on that side, just because I live here, does not mean I am from here? I can tell you one thing, on the list of poor country's the Phillipines sucks balls way harder. Just imagine if someone takes away your month payment and you will have a good idea of how much it bites. But why make it into a contest of poor? I have not stated I dont want to give money to the poor, and I think its not fair to suggest that, I have stated not to agree with rewarding people with a bunch of cash when they fuck up. If I sent money to my family for schooling and they spent it on a TV I would just be as unpleased. The netherlands is the nr 4 most generous country in the world... thats awsome, but to spent alot does not mean its spent well.

That's what the Eastern block is, an investment, not charity.
I think, and this is with all due respect that I have in me, that not everyone will see it that way. I also am not speaking about rights and wrongs, I am telling you why the dutchies are at this moment very unpleased with this situation. I think most feel that we give away tremendous amounts of our hard made money to the EU, more then others and we get to few shit back for it... I think that most feel that it will not make a difference, that it is not an investment but gifts. Gifts to countries that did not follow the rules, where people can stop working 10 years earlier... and I think most of us are tired to work for that view. You say Greece learned? Im sorry but only time will tell that wont it? I still have to see how much they will chance their ways...

And im not saying that you dont make any chance... I am not, but one year after Romania got 20 billion resque funding, look at how many of the demands that should have been made instantly have been realised? That is at most dissapointing in my view.

So yes personally... I think the demands should be stricter; first change then bit of money, another chance more money etc... not the other way around any more. Especially not to countries where corruption is so evident. And yes, if im totally honoust, I rather spent it on countries who are in trouble by something else then their own fuckups.

If you behave naughty you should get a punishment, surely not a free bag of candy.

I blame Saint He infected me

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

If I had a pound for every word in this thread I could bail Greece out myself.

Do I get a qualification for reading the entire thread? Is there a test at the end?

My tip to get through the crisis - invest in beer as it solves every problem.

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The stats below lie. I'm actually much much worse.

It may be a loan, but it wouldn't be the first time a country just tell's the world they don't know of any debt, without any repercussions. Hey, if we hold a fancy convention paid by government money, to agree on the fact that we won't do any experiments with nuclear power anymore, there are enough countries arrogant enough to just ignore the bullshit and do it anyway.
The teach a man how to fish part, did we teach Greece anything? Did the EU tell Greece they would take over for a part to get corruption banned from that country? Nah, we just gave a 1 year old a bag of razors in the land of the hairy...
As I said, I don't dislike helping ppl , helping countries, helping ourselves with upholding the EURO and the EU, but seriously, doesn't the whole EU and Euro thing sound awfully familiar?
Having the same coin in all of europe is all based on the fact that all EU countries are well willing to do good in life, not being corrupted as fuck, able to work together, etc. When was the last freaking time that for instance, the UK and France were able to finally agree on anything? Hell, when was the last time in Belgium that the country wasn't divided into two bickering parts and were able to agree on anything? A lot of countries in the EU aren't able to uphold peace in their own country, let alone in whole Europe and next to that, the whole EU and Euro thing is based on something that sounds wonderful in theory, but in fact doesn't work in practice.
Why? Because a lot of humans on this world are money throbbing bastards who are egocentrically pulling more money to themselves and stealing more and more from the poor.
So let's welcome just another neo communistic fiasco
As I said, I don't dislike helping, but we're not helping here.
I totally understand what Amyl wrote here, I also understand what Sebas has written here. I just don't think we're solving anything over here anymore, we're postponing, making matters worse, ignoring facts, deliberately being blind for proven knowledge and we're repeating our mistakes over and over again.
If everyone would be able to agree, I wouldn't mind everyone earning the same or earning according to how hard you work, no matter what the work would be, as long as it would be contributing in any way, but it's just silly to think this'll work. Trusting countries they won't be corrupted and will do their best to uphold national economy and international economy is a bit the same and Greece has just proven this wonderful fact. In the mean time, the ppl see the same, know the same, but no one is doing something against it...
TBH, I would've liked the Netherlands to show Europe some balls and that they would've told the rest they wouldn't pay anything to Greece as it's just trying to postpone the inevidable!!!! But hey, if you look at governments, the Netherlands hasn't had balls for decades now. At least countries like France and the UK have the balls to say "Fuck you!" to the rest of the world. Not that it did any fucking good , but you at least don't feel like a eunuch!
Ah well, I still have a job and I don't have problems paying for the stupid luxurious shit I do in life, this still doesn't make the difference between rich and poor any more right! If 25% of all slackers would stop slacking as much, if 25% of all rich ppl would stop being so insanely rich and if 25% of all ppl in this world would stop being such egocentrical bastards and so on and so on, this world would be such a better place. Too bad humanity is doomed...
One good thing that'll come from times of crisis though, ppl will learn not to be such egocentrical bastards. Ppl got to be egocentrical because of the fact we have it so good. In the real poor countries, there's no time or space to be egocentrical as that'll mean your death, if you're not one of the rich. Too bad these lessons are forgotten as soon as things ameliorate.
As I said, we're doomed!
In the end,I think we'll have to invest a shitload not to see our precious Euro fall and it'll probably be inevidable.

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M.A.S.K. , is the mighty power that can save the day

"For financing its deficits, amid shrinking economy and plunging revenues, Romania will get a total aid of 20 billion euros. Of this amount, 12.95 billion euros will come from the IMF; 5 billion euros from the EU; and 1 billion euros each from the World Bank and the EBRD. "

Date: 10-05-2010 "So far, Romania received approximately 9.3 billion euros from the IMF, 2.5 billion euros from the EU and 300 million euros from the WB." Not all of the money come from the EU.
And believe me that things are bad here, they just announced that : "Starting from June 1, state sector wages will be cut by 25 per cent and all salaries, including the minimum wage, will be affected. Jobless benefits and pensions will be cut by 15 per cent." People are making protests daily getting trampled on the street, soon they will start the general strikes in all the areas: school, transportation etc. And i believe that in a couple of months they will raise the VAT level and the flat tax too 24% and 20%.

And this guy is from the IMF and will bleed us dry for the next couple of years :

That guy looks like a massive c...

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-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

What did you expect balls? To me, almost all those ppl handling politics or bank stuff look like the ppl that seriously got beaten up in high school.
I don't know if it was Sebas or Johny saying that the EU has set itself to a hippie kind of way of dealing with things now. I really don't dislike that idea. The problem is though that there are a lot of rotten apples in the world. Look at the money getting donated to big organizations like unicef or any other development aid. When they had that massive earthquake, a shitload of tents were placed and there were a lot of tents that stood there, empty, doing nothing. There was no one around to tell the inhabitants that they could use those tents either. I know, a lot of tents were used, but those empty tents costed money and were supposed to be accompagnied by unicef officials who were nowhere to be found.
A lot of the money that get's donated to developmental aid organizations disappears in bureaucratic bullshit and administration costs. If we set ourselves to being the overall loving hippies, helping and loving, peace not war kinda bullshit, fine by me. Let's ban money completely I say. Too bad this will never work anymore unless we go on a razzia and kill every rotten apple in the world.
Again, I'm fine with loans, donations, whatever. Happy to donate a shitload of money to the countries that really need it. Also, I know what poverty means and feels like, I've eaten any kind of apple meal you can think of for a few months when my folks had trouble making a living in France, but seriously, we're throwing the money away atm. If you want to do it correctly, go teach those ppl how to fish. Send good ppl over there to assess the problems and who will actively try to help the officials there. Giving money to a corrupt and broken country just sounds stupid.
Next to that, I still feel but fucked by the system. We donate a shitload to brussels, we pay a shitload of national taxes and we get back less and less. As I said, I rather live in a country where I pay less and have more risks, at least I can choose more where my money goes.
And finally, the whole deal of having the same coin and such won't work I think, it's doomed. There will always be corruption, countries will always have there differences and economical states will differ a lot, always. I thought we had learned stuff from the history that passed, apparently not
Same thing with communism as I said earlier. In theory it's a beautiful idea, if everyone would have the best intentions in mind. In practice, it comes down to the rich having more and the poorer get more poor. TBH , if the economicall downfall of Greece wouldn't have meant that the whole euro would fall, I seriously doubt that so many countries would give so much!

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M.A.S.K. , is the mighty power that can save the day

He's got a face you'd never get tired of punching.

That's why Science gave us two fists.

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-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."