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[SpA]Toresson
 Post subject: Ship To Gaza attacked
PostPosted: 31 May 2010, 17:01 
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Ship To Gaza has been attacked on international waters today. Any thoughts? Approx 10-20 dead, lots of people wounded and no way to get through to the people onboard due to massive Israelian blockades.
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Ship to Gaza and the Freedom Flotilla received a threatening fax from the Israeli maritime authorities today, 30 May, declaring that Israel has, without further ado, expanded its “security zone” to 68 nautical miles, effective immediately.

In an email to Ship to Gaza, Professor Richard Falk, one of the world's leading experts on international law, commented on the message: “Israel's unilateral establishment of a 68-mile security zone without any legitimate security basis for apprehension is a deliberate further unlawful provocation, encroaching on the freedom of navigation on the high seas.”

Falk adds that since John Ging—director of U.N. relief operations in Gaza–has called for humanitarian aid to be brought into Gaza by sea, the Freedom Flotilla should arguably be considered an “ultra-innocent”, humanitarian mission.
Personally: Fuck this shit. I'm sick and fucking tired of seeing those sionist bastards punishing the people of gaza and the western bank. Structural apartheid with a colizational government, and not a single fucking country in the west condemns it due to the presence of the big US and A.
Today they destroyed a humanitarian convoy with several deaths as a result, and as far as I know the only country that officially condemns this is Turkey. How the FUCK is this possible? Are we all spineless faggots, with spineless faggot politicians speaking for us? We can _not_ continue to stand idly by, something needs to change _now_.
The blockade @ Gaza/Western Bank is not something that's 2-3 years old as quite a few "news sites" want you to think, it's been in effect in different form since the 60-70ies. That's 40-50 years...
The unlawful occupation must end, and the Israelis need to face the facts. You can't have a land on a pure religious basis. The world does not need another theocracy. Get along, or get the fuck out.
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[SpA]SaintK
PostPosted: 31 May 2010, 17:36 
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The country is American, what do you expect?
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Greasy_greabo
PostPosted: 31 May 2010, 18:21 
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apparently all international countries have condemned it except USA so far,

"Zionism is a force more dangerous than Islam" - Illan Pappe

Its a country which has displaced and basically ethnically cleansed the areas for its own people, rewriting its history to suit them and giving them the power and economic standpoint to dominate the Palastinians.

Its pretty fucked up; but its becoming more and more known about in contrary to the 90's views that Israel was a poor weak country being constantly under threat of attack by the Middle East - Hell, its become apparent that Israels military is more advanced and from a expenditure standpoint, more invested than any of its surrounding Countries put together...

A proper peace agreement is needed with land sharing and power sharing for Palestinians and Israelis; any other solution just will lead to conflict.

But Aye, just another example of Israels domination and over-exertion to hold onto a power they claim is theirs.

Oh and I gotta say, I feel its better explained through ethnics than religion - This is basically like the USA destorying the American indians to inhabit their land, hence why the USA cant say nothing - then they would seem like hypocrites!
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[SpA]gibboss28
PostPosted: 31 May 2010, 19:00 
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You know its fucked up when the Turkish government says thats its wrong.

...and yet no apology for the Armenian genocide..hmm

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[SpA]aduket
PostPosted: 31 May 2010, 19:22 
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When ships started to go we all knew that might happen. Our government knew too, but they allowed them to go..
And 1 y.o baby in this ship, why?.. I smell a bit provocation :|
But still; innocent peoples lost their lives today and this happened in international waters. Display of power(USA).
And there will be only codemnations as usual.
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Greasy_greabo
PostPosted: 31 May 2010, 19:48 
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Well, why is it disallowed to provide aid for people who are forced to be refugees in their own countries? People who live in the place where you can grow no food, have no utilities and basically live in the desert.

Israel government is fucked up, however the general view portrayed to us by our medias is that of the "Israeli story"

I support the palestinian people in this conflict, i say conflict, i mean basic massacring of people and stealing of their homes...
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[SpA]Toresson
PostPosted: 31 May 2010, 20:08 
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[SpA]Greasy_greabo wrote:
apparently all international countries have condemned it except USA so far,

"Zionism is a force more dangerous than Islam" - Illan Pappe

Its a country which has displaced and basically ethnically cleansed the areas for its own people, rewriting its history to suit them and giving them the power and economic standpoint to dominate the Palastinians.

Its pretty fucked up; but its becoming more and more known about in contrary to the 90's views that Israel was a poor weak country being constantly under threat of attack by the Middle East - Hell, its become apparent that Israels military is more advanced and from a expenditure standpoint, more invested than any of its surrounding Countries put together...

A proper peace agreement is needed with land sharing and power sharing for Palestinians and Israelis; any other solution just will lead to conflict.

But Aye, just another example of Israels domination and over-exertion to hold onto a power they claim is theirs.

Oh and I gotta say, I feel its better explained through ethnics than religion - This is basically like the USA destorying the American indians to inhabit their land, hence why the USA cant say nothing - then they would seem like hypocrites!
Yeah, got the updates now. Hadn't checked the news before posting, had 5 min before I had to get back to work now. Still an embarresing that US haven't condemned it yet though.

About ethnics over religion:
Jews are not an _ethnic group_. They're a religious cult. Just as Jehovas witnesses, scientologists etc and so on. They can't claim anything as a "people", and what we did when we gave them the right to call israel a state was to institute another theocracy in the middle-east, where we "fight for democracy" otherwise.
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[SpA]aduket
PostPosted: 31 May 2010, 20:22 
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I agree Greasy and ofc i support Palestinians too. I don't know how can supporters help Gaza but it was obvious this way isn't the way.
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Greasy_greabo
PostPosted: 31 May 2010, 20:50 
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The whole conflict is a conflict of political groups defined by culture, race or morality struggling for dominance or autonomy over a a country. An ethno-group aspires for political autonomy or "their own country" and hence why we have such conflicts - the religious overtones of it are exactly what they are, definers of groups however there are plenty of non-zionist jews and non-islamic palestinians involved in this.

The zionist claims for the land was claimed as far back as the 19th century - wherein they claimed they would secretly move other races across the borders out of the country.

This is an ethnic cleansing, rather than religious conflict.... imho... religion is used as a mobilizer for society - the real motives and goals are power; or on the flipside, equality.
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Crovax20
PostPosted: 31 May 2010, 21:34 
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Problem is that powersharing simply won't work, the actor based and structural based factors are seriously fucked at the moment. Perhaps if the actor based factors would improve we could see a system of powersharing in Israel, but there is no need for Israel to cooperate at all, untill the USA stops backing them up.

The USA isn't very likely to stop backing up Israel though, with the right wing (pretty much) fundamentalist christians having gained a lot of power during the Bush Administration. They see Israel as the holy land, destined for the Jews coz its in their holy texts. I don't think Obama will do much, because the last thing he wants is pissing of the conservatives in his country even more.

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Greasy_greabo
PostPosted: 31 May 2010, 21:58 
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Crovax20 wrote:
The USA isn't very likely to stop backing up Israel though, with the right wing (pretty much) fundamentalist christians having gained a lot of power during the Bush Administration. They see Israel as the holy land, destined for the Jews coz its in their holy texts. I don't think Obama will do much, because the last thing he wants is pissing of the conservatives in his country even more.
There is actually no correlation between congress votes for pro-Israel bills and the christian fundemental right in Washington - a fact which shocked me tbh; i was gonna use that as an argument for the religious contextulisation of the conflict in my exam last week till I found out :(

The problem is that they feel that land is divided equally, however palestine ended up with the desert and no sea ports ( except gaza strip, which pisses off Israel no end) while Israel got the areas which contain the areas biggest exports etc. It can be peacefully negotiated, but the first step is for Israel to admit its guilt in the actions - which of course it wont until the Zionist generations are out of power - young israelis are slowly becoming opposed to the situation; so its a matter of time, and the efforts of the people from both sides tbh...
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Crovax20
PostPosted: 31 May 2010, 22:14 
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[SpA]Greasy_greabo wrote:
Crovax20 wrote:
The USA isn't very likely to stop backing up Israel though, with the right wing (pretty much) fundamentalist christians having gained a lot of power during the Bush Administration. They see Israel as the holy land, destined for the Jews coz its in their holy texts. I don't think Obama will do much, because the last thing he wants is pissing of the conservatives in his country even more.
There is actually no correlation between congress votes for pro-Israel bills and the christian fundemental right in Washington - a fact which shocked me tbh; i was gonna use that as an argument for the religious contextulisation of the conflict in my exam last week till I found out :(

The problem is that they feel that land is divided equally, however palestine ended up with the desert and no sea ports ( except gaza strip, which pisses off Israel no end) while Israel got the areas which contain the areas biggest exports etc. It can be peacefully negotiated, but the first step is for Israel to admit its guilt in the actions - which of course it wont until the Zionist generations are out of power - young israelis are slowly becoming opposed to the situation; so its a matter of time, and the efforts of the people from both sides tbh...

I suggest you read:
Fuad Shaban, 2003, 11 september and the millennialist discourse: an order of words? Arab studies quarterly; 25 : 1/2, 13-32.

Its quite an interesting read, concerning western christian fundamentalism. Its unrelated to your post, but you might find it interesting.

Btw, you got a link to some research showing that there is no correlation? I'd be interested in reading that, want to know how they tested it.

(edit) attached a bunch of stuff for Greasy and removed it again. Hope you get some use out of it Greasy.

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[SpA]CrackHead
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 01:35 
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[SpA]gibboss28 wrote:
You know its fucked up when the Turkish government says thats its wrong.

...and yet no apology for the Armenian genocide..hmm
Read history before reading parts of it. The armenians were massed and transported elsewhere, after they slaughtered Ottoman villagers(quite a few times) and people died when this happened. Even in the 1st world war the armenians massacred villagers. These things aren't mentioned in any places of those texts. Furthermore. IT WAS THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE!

Now it's Turkey with a democratic basis and other philosifies. SO acknowledging it is somewhat retarted, because that was done under another regime. This demand (AND MANY MANY MANY OTHERS)are made by the EU are delibirately just to say no to the joining of Turkey into the EU, but in a fashion that they aren't saying it.


Now back on the subject:

IMO the Jews are almost doing precisely with the palestinians what the germans did with them. Being hypocritical is what I call it. They only miss the concentration camps......

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Greasy_greabo
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 01:43 
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VillageCrackHead wrote:
IMO the Jews are almost doing precisely with the palestinians what the germans did with them. Being hypocritical is what I call it. They only miss the concentration camps......
Its interesting to note that the "eastern jews" between 45 - at least the 80's talked of the holocaust as the "weak western jews allowing it to happen to them"

It was only once israel wanted/needed the international support of the west they turned it round in the media and history that they were a weak little nation which was still hurting from the holocaust.
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[SpA]Toresson
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 13:31 
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yeah, quite the spin to the tale, no? But as you've stated earlier, we need to get the zionists out before there can be any talk of peace and sharing of lands.

This is a quite interesting read:
http://www.cme.lu.se/2009/research/cmes ... e-project/


Ethnicity:
As I see it, you can't claim a land as a religious group. It's really as simple as that. I'm well aware that there's a lot of non-religious jews/christians/arabs involved, but they're involved due to the fact that their religious brothers are going apeshit like a adrenaline induced frenzy in a midget with downs. (On both sides!)
Personally I believe the palestinians to have "right" to the land, and before the creation of Israel via UK/UN both jews and muslims lived side by side, if not always without friction.
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[SpA]SaintK
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 14:15 
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I've seen the movie made by the Israel army on entering the ship. From what i gather the shooting was fully justified. On entering the ship the people started bashing the soldiers with iron poles, chairs, they even trew a soldier off the ship. I would give em a bullet too.
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[SpA]Jury
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 14:57 
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I cant even be bothered to start making conclusions who's to blame..
These days it is impossible to get non-objective information from the news or newspapers so you all are just guessing based on half truths manipulated by both sides . The truth is probably somewhere in between.

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[SpA]SaintK
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 15:20 
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http://www.spitsnieuws.nl/archives/buit ... n_vri.html
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Lim-Dul
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 15:34 
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You know - the deaths of all these people are very tragic and we can and should question Israel's actions i.e. the very fact that the blockade exists BUT when it comes to this particular incident I'm not ready to jump onto the "this is so wrong" bandwagon.

We are not talking about the Red Cross here, we are talking about politically active people set onto breaking through the barricade and supply the enemies of the army that has it up with something. The ships received ample warning, they knew what they were getting themselves into and whoopty fuckin' doo they have been attacked. Heck, even if there was no hostile action on the ships against the IDF I wouldn't really blame them for getting shot.

In fact I would blame the organizers of the whole "trip" for everything that happened since they MUST HAVE expected it - now they have attained the "martyrdom card" they can play over and over again. It's retarded - it's blatant disregard for human life to advance your own agenda, not quite unlike suicide bombers being talked into doing what they do. -.-

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[SpA]CrackHead
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 15:50 
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Yes, but sending in commandos to do naval jobs is also somewhat "Overkill". And also shooting with live ammunition. Using teargass on women. Shooting from point blank range. Last time i checked these things are a bit excessive. I also have seen al jazeera news, and it states that the Israeli commandos 1st started it(also why did the western news wait for 24 hours before making any statement?)

And there were multiple ships in the convoy. Those others shat their pants and immediately surrendered when thay saw what happened on the lead ship(yes people, the Turkish ship was the main ship). This also makes me think it was done deliberately, just to make a statement to the other ships and make them surrender without a hitch(why waste time on multiple ships, if you can do it just once).

Furthermore, if these are commandos and aiming at people who weren't standing far away, I wonder if they couldn't shoot their legs OR use teargass 1st. Killing 16 people in this process is somewhat...... inhumane....

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[SpA]SaintK
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 16:09 
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VillageCrackHead wrote:
Yes, but sending in commandos to do naval jobs is also somewhat "Overkill". And also shooting with live ammunition. Using teargass on women. Shooting from point blank range. Last time i checked these things are a bit excessive. I also have seen al jazeera news, and it states that the Israeli commandos 1st started it(also why did the western news wait for 24 hours before making any statement?)

And there were multiple ships in the convoy. Those others shat their pants and immediately surrendered when thay saw what happened on the lead ship(yes people, the Turkish ship was the main ship). This also makes me think it was done deliberately, just to make a statement to the other ships and make them surrender without a hitch(why waste time on multiple ships, if you can do it just once).

Furthermore, if these are commandos and aiming at people who weren't standing far away, I wonder if they couldn't shoot their legs OR use teargass 1st. Killing 16 people in this process is somewhat...... inhumane....
Watch the movie i posted, you'll get the shooting then.
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Lim-Dul
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 17:05 
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Crackhead, it's easy to judge actions taken in a warzone while not being there. When shit hits the fan you can't really blame soldiers for "not shooting the legs" or whatever. Like I said - these people shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Also, commandos are usually a unit in the navy, so there's nothing strange in them being there - they are better trained in small scale operations and crowd control too, normal soldiers might have simply mowed everybody down, since they wouldn't have had access to paintball guns or whatever.

In my opinion it's just silly trying to provoke the military. If they failed at breaching the blockade they should have turned around. The whole matter is like throwing stones at policemen and then complaining that they are shooting you back with rubber bullets - only here it's the military and they shoot live bullets instead.

As I pointed out you might question Israeli politics and the fact that there's a warzone at all BUT people getting shot in a warzone being "inhumane"? C'mon - when was war EVER humane? I got a protip how to not get shot in a war - don't go there in the first place, especially if it's not yours to fight. -.-

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Crovax20
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 17:13 
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[SpA]Lim-Dul wrote:
1. Like I said - these people shouldn't have been there in the first place.

2. Also, commandos are usually a unit in the navy, so there's nothing strange in them being there - they are better trained in small scale operations and crowd control too, normal soldiers might have simply mowed everybody down, since they wouldn't have had access to paintball guns or whatever.
1. The blockade shouldn't have been there in the first place. Locking people in and starving/denying them acces to essential goods is a serious breach of human rights. Yet Israel does it.

2. Israel used commando's to remove israelis from their houses in the settlements that were cleared. Those Israelis also beat them with iron pipes and even shot at them, yet nobody died there... It is pretty clear Israel is the one who dropped the ball here, they are in full damage control mode now.

Of course you aren't supposed to go smash people's head in though. I am suprised they didn't just nuke the whole ship, I mean if one Israeli dies from a missile they usually respond by killing 20 palestinians

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Greasy_greabo
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 19:41 
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The problem is this isnt an isolated incident , as Crovax points out, since the 1950's there has been a co-ordinated, from the top, repression and ethnic cleansing of Palestine/Israel, to remove them from their homes and take their land.

This whole "Self defense" act is pure propoganda.

During the years of 1945+ when they were massacring palestinian villages - they claimedit was self defense, and they were moving them on as per the UN treaty, however the palestinian villages had a few stocks of imperial- age rifles.

On past actions, from the 1940's to the infitadas its quite easy to pick the side of the palestinians - this "self defense" nonsense is pure nonsense.
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Lim-Dul
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 21:18 
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I think everybody's aware of all of the above, I even stated that you could rant about Israeli politics and such. It's just that it doesn't have anything to do with this particular incident - people go into a warzone, they ignore warnings and refuse to back off, they get shot - end of story, it doesn't even matter who started it, actually.
And no - I'm not a fan of what Israel is and has been doing for many, many years but I don't think this particular case can be used as an argument for anything - it's material for another discussion completely...

BTW - let's not forget that it was the British who planted the Israelis in the middle of the Arab lands. "But Jews need to have a country" - don't know about that, they seemed to go about their business without one just fine for thousands of years. ;-)

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Crovax20
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 21:27 
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warzone :roll:

Because they clearly were mingled with Hamas gunmen who were dug in and firing at the Israel army.

warzone :roll:

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[SpA]cookye
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 21:28 
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Crovax20
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 21:29 
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[SpA]cookye wrote:
Image
Image

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DrMcMoist
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 22:31 
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I blame the Nazi's.
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[SpA]SaintK
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2010, 22:45 
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[SpA]DrMcMoist wrote:
I blame the Nazi's.
I blame misplaced library books.
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