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Class Limit Discussions
https://forum.specialattack.net/viewtopic.php?t=11150		 Page 6 of 7
Author:  [SpA]SaintK [ 23 Aug 2011, 18:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limits Poll (Re-vote)
matude wrote:
nMd! wrote:
choose if u wish to play on a class limited server, or not on the no-critz one. Or am I not making sense? :ugly:
This probably needs it's own thread but we should discuss the current situation of the no-crit server in general, because it's essentially dead really? It rarely fills up at evenings, it's not listed in the quickmenu so F2P guys can't find it and even then they are afraid to join because they feel it's limiting their experience (I'm guessing here?), when in reality it should be the flag-ship server of the whole community, filled with the best and brightest :ugly: .

Actually, why isn't it in the quickmenu? And what is the quickmenu haha, Anne mentioned this one day and it stuck with me, but I'm not really knowledgable in the topic.

I don't enjoy whining like this again at all :) It's just... kinda shameful to see the no-crit server withering in it's dark empty existence.
It's not in the quickplay list, that's what she meant. The server is disqualified due to it's no crtiz settings (which are lame anyway :mrgreen: ) :26 random stuff
Author:  [SpA]MrOrange [ 23 Aug 2011, 18:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limits Poll (Re-vote)
What Saint said. Only servers that have no gameplay changing plugins/mods are qualified for the batch of quickplay servers.
Quickplay, by the way, is what you do when you click the 'play now' button instead of browsing for servers. Most newer players do this rather than just stumble on our no-crits by accident.
Author:  ProtectMyBalls [ 23 Aug 2011, 19:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limits Poll (Re-vote)
hehe let's not bad mouth the no crits server ^^ it was a community request and kept spa tf2 going during the dry-non-free patch :mrgreen: ^^
Author:  Luis [ 23 Aug 2011, 19:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limits Poll (Re-vote)
I voted yes.

Was on defence on dustbowl 3rd stage this morning and our team composition was 4 heavies, 4 engineers, 2 medics and me as demo. It was the biggest spawn killing spree for 20 minutes that I've ever seen, with most of my team scoring 100+ points. I ended up changing to blue to try and help them and saw the problem immediately as they had 3 scouts, 3 spies, 4 snipers and a engineer. I asked them to change classes to something that would benefit the team more, but none of them seem interested and couldn't care less. A class limit of 3 for all classes would be very reasonable as there is never a need for 4 people to be a certain class. It would also make some of the F2P's change their class and learn more about the game, as at the moment they seem quite content with being slaughtered.

But that's just my opinion :ugly:
Author:  matude [ 23 Aug 2011, 20:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limits Poll (Re-vote)
[SpA]MrOrange wrote:
What Saint said. Only servers that have no gameplay changing plugins/mods are qualified for the batch of quickplay servers.
Quickplay, by the way, is what you do when you click the 'play now' button instead of browsing for servers. Most newer players do this rather than just stumble on our no-crits by accident.
Oh, didn't know that. Makes total sense then. :) Cheers.
Author:  [SpA]JuncoPartner [ 23 Aug 2011, 20:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limits Poll (Re-vote)
Yeah I mean when people are voting, bare in mind that no one wants any limits of 1, or 2 that wont happen even with a popular vote for those numbers, most people just want a very flexible number of 3 for the few problem classes, that would probably be the end result if management decide to put a limit on anyway.
matude wrote:
I don't enjoy whining like this again at all :) It's just... kinda shameful to see the no-crit server withering in its dark empty existence.
I'm going to setup a steam group for the no critz players, which will allow us to see who's online, who ingame, and then players can comment on the events, so we'll know if we have enough people up for it. Will probably be filling it up at peak time, so it wont leave the vanilla servers without admins and regulars all the time. The !calladmin feature can allow all the online admins to be on no critz, but ready to switch if they get an admin call. I'll ellaborate in a forum post to run it by everyone, and see who's interested.
Author:  annarack [ 23 Aug 2011, 21:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
What? I'm sorry but this is not a re-vote. Voting has already taken place on whether we want a class limit or not. It does not change just because of f2p. This thread is about what class you want limited if at all.
Author:  Luis [ 23 Aug 2011, 23:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
[SpA]annarack wrote:
What? I'm sorry but this is not a re-vote. Voting has already taken place on whether we want a class limit or not. It does not change just because of f2p. This thread is about what class you want limited if at all.
In that case I propose, a limit off 3 for all classes except from engineer (1) on ctf maps.
Author:  [SpA]MrOrange [ 24 Aug 2011, 00:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
There seems to have been some confusion about this new poll.

It wasn't there as a deciding tool about limits on our servers (we already have a system in place).
I refreshed the poll to more accurately see what people's current take on things was. All these new votes in the old poll didn't mean anything (as the older votes on the original poll were used as a deciding factor in setting up our current system) so people's opinions got lost in the high number of votes already in the old poll.

The poll should've been closed after it has served its purpose, sorry for the confusion.

Still, don't stop giving us feedback on what you think about the current system. We're always looking for community input.
Author:  ProtectMyBalls [ 24 Aug 2011, 00:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
Image

it's a magic number 8)
Author:  canadacanucks01 [ 24 Aug 2011, 02:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
could we limit the engie number to 2?
3 is just a cluster $#@& to deal with!
Author:  ProtectMyBalls [ 24 Aug 2011, 02:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
Not sure if it is possible, but if there were to be more class restrictions, could we put an exception on degroot keep? so that no class is limited, or its really high and it wouldn't matter, i dont want to see people fighting over demoknight or have the "DoD Sniper" problem :S
Author:  Luis [ 25 Aug 2011, 00:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
Is engineer banned on Hydro? Can't it be the same as CTF maps?
Author:  sebas [ 25 Aug 2011, 00:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
1 engie on hydro should be fine imo.
Author:  annarack [ 25 Aug 2011, 00:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
We only set an engy limit on the ctf maps, but there seems to be a bit of a bug since VALVe's update a few weeks ago, so if anyone else notices anything out of the ordinary please do let us know.
Author:  ProtectMyBalls [ 25 Aug 2011, 01:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
Limit of 1 on hydro sounds fine to me. 3-5 wrangler control lvl3 sentry guns on some of the red CP's sounds as fun as dustbowl...
Author:  Luis [ 25 Aug 2011, 01:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:
Limit of 1 on hydro sounds fine to me. 3-5 wrangler control lvl3 sentry guns on some of the red CP's sounds as fun as dustbowl...
Yeh that's what i was thinking, I just wanted to go as an attacking engi with the mini-sentry, but I ended up being a useless medic :ugly:
Author:  ProtectMyBalls [ 25 Aug 2011, 11:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
Sounds good to me, 1 engy is never an issue because attacking a single fixed position is easily achievable.
Author:  ShadowKnight [ 26 Aug 2011, 14:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
Just joined up to the forums, hi people. You have seen me online, no doubt.

To me this is a big issue, and one of the only things in the way of your servers being my favorites. On the one hand you have the enjoyment people get from playing their favorite class. However, I believe that a fair game should override that. The balance of the classes in TF2 at the moment is pretty atrocious, and I see no reason to make it worse by not having a class limit. I would like class limits, at the very least a limit of 4 on every class. Then, is there the possibility of changing the class limits depending on the map?

Ideal: Limit Scout, Pyro, Soldier, Medic, and Spy to 3, and limit Heavy, Demoman, and Engineer and Sniper to 2.

If map variable limits are possible, limit all classes to 3, but cycle the 2 limits around a little. For example, on Dustbowl Heavy is ridiculous and Demoman is just plain stupid, and given my way I would just limit both to 1, but on Badlands it is Scout which is the problem, especially now when there are 5 on each team.

Some people claim peoples enjoyment is ruined by strict class limits. Well, my enjoyment is ruined by a lack of strict class limits, especially when that means a game turns into a SPAMFEST of Heavy-Medic pairs and Demomen. That is not TF2, that is Valve's balance being crap, and we really don't need to help it along.
Author:  ProtectMyBalls [ 26 Aug 2011, 15:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
Cheers for the feedback SK. :5:
Author:  ProtectMyBalls [ 28 Aug 2011, 20:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
Well what shadow knight said, I've been saying for months now, and I agree alot :D

was a bit pissed off just now in game, 5 snipers, many of which were awful, and we say we don't want to be restrictive? I'm being restricted because I and many regulars will feel guilty playing the classes We want to play because we are letting 3-4 other new players sit in a class they don't understand or know how to use in context of a team, and let the F2Players restrict everyone's enjoyment by letting them be useless, in addition to having to ask them to change all the time, some players are not able to learn

sorry, rant over :<
Author:  [SpA]Revenge [ 29 Aug 2011, 13:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
I hope this makes sense.

When people post here, just be aware that when you post, there is no way of achieving 100% perfection here. Every game will be different because there ar just too many factors in place.

What person is playing.

What class is their favourite.

What weapons have they bought or unlocked.

What time of the day is it.

What their favourite meal is.

When you give your opinion , try and compare how it is now to how it was a month ago and so on. I'm sure management will try to get as close as they can to perfection of classes, but perfection is impossible, if the game just sucks , then thats because life has happened and certain people are on, for all you know before you joined everything was actually perfectly fine. And for all you know the last 3 days have had the right balance and been perfect.

I just want to remind people that just because the 40 minutes you played wasn't the best or you , doesn't mean everything needs changing drastically, by all means put your opinions up and im sure techteam will try to work as hard as they can to improve it, but also try to understand if it doesn't get changed.

For some reason i just felt this should be voiced, sorry if it didnt
Author:  [SpA]JuncoPartner [ 29 Aug 2011, 14:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
Well before f2p, it was like that Revenge, every now and then games would be ruined by poor class choices, and lack of class limits. Back then I just took that as part of the game, but it's happening so often, so frequently now, that we must intervene. It's so frustrating, you want a game of tf2 and yet again you're playing another match of you and 2 others vs the other team, because the rest of your team have all gone spy, engie, sniper. Maybe I wanted to play engie that round, maybe when the map started I went engie and thought "yeahh I'll get a tele up and shit" then 3 other players went engie, so I had to change class.

Time of day is another thing, I don't think everyone's seeing these situations, it's most common before and after peak times, if you join at a time where all the other regulars are on you'll be thinking, "god don't know why everyone is up in arms about these class limits, everything looks fine to me" but it's a real problem, I don't know how people can convey any further that we really do need a class limit of 3 on the problem classes. I should be enjoying myself, not trying to talk my team into picking different classes, and being battered back into spawn, it's not even fun when the enemy team is being steamrolled.
Author:  [SpA]Revenge [ 29 Aug 2011, 16:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
Ok well how about for 5 days , everybody makes a tally of how many good rounds they had , and how many shit overclassed rounds they had , then we initiate the a change and everyone does a tally again.

If the tally is better the second time round then we keep the change in class limit , if the change is worse or the same we revert back to normal and how it is at the moment?

Anybody who is too lazy to take part in the survey/ tally will lose their complaining rights about the class limits?

This isn't a lets take action , but would this be deemed a fair way to decide if a different class limit would work.

Obvious the tally would be a bit more than "that as a crap game" or "That was an awesome game"
Author:  [SpA]Scatterbrain [ 29 Aug 2011, 17:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
i haven't participated in this discussion mostly because i'm not on the servers as much as i was, and partly because i think i'm at a bit of an extreme anyway (i'd really like to see a universal limit of three on every class - that includes stuff like medic). but this is a bit of a separate issue.

can we have a limit on heavies - probably a limit of 0 - until the server starts to get full? someone running heavy when there are less than eight people in the server is not only lame, it can actually kill the game before it even gets properly started. and that's only when there's one person doing it. it's really, really frustrating when they refuse to switch classes until the place gets a bit busier. not much to elaborate on, just a little point i noticed on some of the occasions that i've tried to fill up an empty server.
Author:  sebas [ 29 Aug 2011, 18:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
I can see limits of 0 upsetting people. It was the case with engineers on CTF back when we had it and doing so for other classes is really going to get frustrating.

I mean, it's not like you can't kill a heavy 1vs1. :)
Author:  annarack [ 29 Aug 2011, 20:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
Can I just point out the class limits is not a new thing to SpA. As TF2 got more popular when it came out, SpA put class limits on because of the community feedback. Then it was taken off because of community feedback, then it was put on because of community feedback, then it was taken off again....and so on!

Granted the gameplay has changed immensly, but please bear in mind that SpA has heard alot of this before so, as I have mentioned in my post earlier, the more feedback, the more convincement :mrgreen:
Author:  Thaw111 [ 29 Aug 2011, 23:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
Is there no way for admins to do a kind of forced class change for people who refuse to change and maybe limit that particular class in-game? so they can "optimise" the class limit if ya will ^^ so people can have as much freedom as... whatever but if things get really bad then they can limit...
Author:  PetePorty [ 29 Aug 2011, 23:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
I can see 10 new threads a week called "<admin> is abusing his power, he changed my class and kicked me when I changed back!"... Also, under what criteria do you decide which person to change? It doesn't seem like a good idea to me, TBH.
Author:  [SpA]Revenge [ 30 Aug 2011, 00:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Discussions
Thaw111 wrote:
Is there no way for admins to do a kind of forced class change for people who refuse to change and maybe limit that particular class in-game? so they can "optimise" the class limit if ya will ^^ so people can have as much freedom as... whatever but if things get really bad then they can limit...
We pride ourselves on as little interference in the games as possible , we are there to passively make people not do things wrong, not to ruin their experience by forcing them to change.

Then it comes down to the Admins subjective opinion...

Its a nice thought but couldn't be implemented without ruining how special attack acts and without it being to irregular in the decisions
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