SpecialAttack.net :: Class limit

5 medics are way too many. At dustbowl 5 ubers can destroy any defense. 3 are fine as many as engis.

I'm for class limits. But I think we should discuss it after the "medic frenzy" passes out a bit.

as it is a free game and we all are mature player, I think introducing a class limit is overstated!
In my opinion it should be up to each player wut class he want to choose!
cause for a successfull team communicatoin is the key, so why limitating classes when u can talk to other player and ask for changing class in game! You take away flexibility reacting on tactics the other team presents!

just a simple example for limitating sniper:
noob players are not able to do countersniping wut u ask them to do, to save ur team of a skilled player or defend a special point, no sniper slot available -> you can't change team tactics/improvement that fast - usefull time elapsed!

one single player can change alot during a game (of course with the right team behind) and that can happen when u stay flexible!

So when u ask me the vote should be "NO" for class limits!

[SpA]Crovax20 wrote:

Btw, Saintk, would it be possible for people to buy an exemption from being restricted to class choice with a couple of spa-points? So if some guy really badly wants to play sniper on a map he can pay 10 points and be unrestricted for 10 minutes or that map?

This right here is a good idea, if class limits are introduced. However, should rather be per map than buying minutes.
SpA points can be used for so much

Planning and discussing the balancing of the limits would be endless and confusing.

This is a game for fun, if you really want to play THAT MUCH for the win, i really recommend CS would be better for you. If this would be class-balanced, this would be just as serius as CS and kinda would remove the most stupidness and fun of the game.

This is my opinion, i'm sorry, but i won't change it. I'm a weirdo, it's not my faulth

Unbalanced = win
Win = fun (well, its better than loosing)
Fun = great

Personally I think the more closely matched teams are the more fun there is to be had. A narrow hard fought victory is a lot more satisfying then steamrolling the oppostion in a minute, for me anyhow

Class limts suck, Im sorry but in the game ANY combination has a counter combination - If half your team is snipers on 2fort just say "look guys, can we have less snipers and more offence" half the guys will change.
I love playing sniper - if it gets limited for other peoples fun then its a bit gash wouldnt u think? How would you like it if I said "look guys heavies are slow and useless imo lets limit them to 1" or "demomen cant shoot for shiz, they only get lucky rebounds - not useful except on attacking dustbowl imo!". You wouldn't you would all say things such as "pfft noob, attacking classes, fun!". Well at the end of the day limiting classes may enhance certain players fun but when im stuck running about as some class I dont wanna play Im not rly gonna be trying or having fun.

Just leave it how valve intended! Say no to class limits! Mainly because they are gash!

Ok, so here's the deal.

If you really want classlimits, i need a propper detailed way on how to do this.

I need a per map, per class, per team classification on the classlimiting. Once you've worked this out, it can be posted and discussed here. If we then think it would be an improvement over the current situation then we might implement it. I don't want to simply set a fixed class limit for all maps, as each map imo requires differant amounts from certain classes.

[SpA]SaintK wrote:

We should think more bout this imho. If we come up with nice solutins (Crovax has some nice which can be modified a little if needed) I think there's no problem with limits (if you can buy class reservation with SpA-points ofc):)

DoC wrote:

[SpA]SaintK wrote:

I think we are at the discussion part already :p

If people want to attack as four snipers and 2 engineers then whats the problem? they all have guns and legs. Ive been in plenty of offences where people engineer rush and build up foward sgs and tps. I can snipe people at close range... I can support the heavys and medics make sure 1) tehy dont get sniped 2) theres no engis on enemy sgs 3)medics are dealt with.

Seriously, its the whole "if everyone plays the way i want them to itll be fun" reasoning... people dont pick classes to suit you they pick what they are good at or what they want to play.

And please come on! "organised matches are fun because everyone plays there role" thats the definition of an organised match. Spa srvers are public servers, not world ranking professional server.

No! too many boring writings.

heres an analogy. Once upon a time a prince met a princess and they were happy. They wanted to get married. But then god put class limits on princesses and the princess had to become a heavy. The prince was not impressed and killed himself.

Heres another one. Hitler was gonna be a good upstanding citizen till the League of nations decided to put class limits on good upstanding citizens. So in turn he had to spawn as a bad bad man.

You see the pattern? Class limits = pain and unhappiness!

Vote no on proposition 159! - No class limits plox!

You damn classist bastards!

Camping on top of your dispenser and hitting your sentry with your wrench at spawn isn't exactly.. well, it's useless!

moPP wrote:

Camping on top of your dispenser and hitting your sentry with your wrench at spawn isn't exactly.. well, it's useless!

That was for spawnprotection.

Author:	DoC [ 01 May 2008, 21:39 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
No demo-limits for the defending team in Goldrush and Dustbowl is madness Esp. in Dustbowl... it's the heaven for demos Crovax, if you can think of limit about them... 5 perhaps?

Author:	Crovax20 [ 01 May 2008, 22:31 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
Noxious7 wrote: 5 medics are way too many. At dustbowl 5 ubers can destroy any defense. 3 are fine as many as engis. I'm for class limits. But I think we should discuss it after the "medic frenzy" passes out a bit. lets not forget that you most likely won't have 5 medics when the achievement/newness factor is gone. And if you take 5 medics you will most likely have less then 5-6 true offensive classes. But I suppose you could turn it down to 3 or 4. I'm not all that worried about medics, since after the frenzy is gone, there will probably only be 2 or 3. But I suppose we could say 4. We could also do a class limit of max 5 on the classes I said no limit. But its rare to have more then 4 of the same class for some of em... I just left them out because I thought most people would hate not being able to play one of em, and after implementing the other restrictions that might happen

Author:	[SpA]_w3s [ 02 May 2008, 10:15 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
as it is a free game and we all are mature player, I think introducing a class limit is overstated! In my opinion it should be up to each player wut class he want to choose! cause for a successfull team communicatoin is the key, so why limitating classes when u can talk to other player and ask for changing class in game! You take away flexibility reacting on tactics the other team presents! just a simple example for limitating sniper: noob players are not able to do countersniping wut u ask them to do, to save ur team of a skilled player or defend a special point, no sniper slot available -> you can't change team tactics/improvement that fast - usefull time elapsed! one single player can change alot during a game (of course with the right team behind) and that can happen when u stay flexible! So when u ask me the vote should be "NO" for class limits!

Author:	Crovax20 [ 02 May 2008, 13:53 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
_w3s wrote: as it is a free game and we all are mature player, I think introducing a class limit is overstated! In my opinion it should be up to each player wut class he want to choose! cause for a successfull team communicatoin is the key, so why limitating classes when u can talk to other player and ask for changing class in game! You take away flexibility reacting on tactics the other team presents! just a simple example for limitating sniper: noob players are not able to do countersniping wut u ask them to do, to save ur team of a skilled player or defend a special point, no sniper slot available -> you can't change team tactics/improvement that fast - usefull time elapsed! one single player can change alot during a game (of course with the right team behind) and that can happen when u stay flexible! So when u ask me the vote should be "NO" for class limits! This doesn't solve anything, even if you get a good player go sniping, the n00b player will still stay put sniping as well. Effectively taking a good player away from a different role. Next point is that a lot of people don't listen when you ask for more of a certain class. Or people from another neccesity class switch over and you start asking for people to switch to that one again. Third point, to take down a sniper you don't need a contra sniper. This only leads to stalemating since you have 3 sniper vs 3 sniper battle while the rest of the team walks around undisturbed most of the time. I rather use a spy/demoman/soldier for countering sniper then another sniper. Since not only do you have a very good chance on taking the sniper down, you can also help the offense after you have done so. Besides if its possible for Saintk/demm or whoever codes this stuff, to make you able to spend spapoints to pick ur class then we wouldn't have trouble at all. Since most good players have at least enrolled for the spapoints system.\ There are plenty of ways to counter a sniper, and I seriously don't see another sniper as a solution for the problem. Sniper battles = deathmatch.

Author:	[SpA]Pim [ 02 May 2008, 19:13 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
moPP wrote: [SpA]Crovax20 wrote: Btw, Saintk, would it be possible for people to buy an exemption from being restricted to class choice with a couple of spa-points? So if some guy really badly wants to play sniper on a map he can pay 10 points and be unrestricted for 10 minutes or that map? This right here is a good idea, if class limits are introduced. However, should rather be per map than buying minutes. SpA points can be used for so much that's what i told saint

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Author:	[SpA]TheWeirdo [ 03 May 2008, 16:49 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
Planning and discussing the balancing of the limits would be endless and confusing. This is a game for fun, if you really want to play THAT MUCH for the win, i really recommend CS would be better for you. If this would be class-balanced, this would be just as serius as CS and kinda would remove the most stupidness and fun of the game. This is my opinion, i'm sorry, but i won't change it. I'm a weirdo, it's not my faulth

Author:	Quattro [ 03 May 2008, 17:32 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
yes, FUCK class limit!

Author:	[SpA]moPP [ 03 May 2008, 18:02 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
Balanced gameplay = fun imo Unbalanced gameplay makes it easier to win, which kinda contradict your reasoning Weirdo :p The medic craze lately shows how unbalanced things can be.

Author:	[SpA]TheWeirdo [ 03 May 2008, 19:35 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
Unbalanced = win Win = fun (well, its better than loosing) Fun = great

Author:	Crovax20 [ 03 May 2008, 20:45 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
[SpA]TheWeirdo wrote: Planning and discussing the balancing of the limits would be endless and confusing. This is a game for fun, if you really want to play THAT MUCH for the win, i really recommend CS would be better for you. If this would be class-balanced, this would be just as serius as CS and kinda would remove the most stupidness and fun of the game. This is my opinion, i'm sorry, but i won't change it. I'm a weirdo, it's not my faulth [SpA]TheWeirdo wrote: Unbalanced = win Win = fun (well, its better than loosing) Fun = great See your contradiction? Having 5 spies on your team and subsequently getting pounded into the ground is not fun is it?

Author:	Crovax20 [ 03 May 2008, 20:53 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
Anyways, class balance would ensure at least some balanced gameplay. There is no fun in getting pounded into the ground because you have a zillion snipers/medics/spy/engi running around. Don't you agree that a game that is tense with teams swapping CP's often is more fun then steamrolling your opponent in a minute, because of teamstacking or 20 people picking spy? A limit on some of the classes would ensure that there are enough offensive classes to keep the game flowing, and thus making it more fun for both sides. I have yet to meet anyone who thought it was fun to loose because of his team having 5 spies. Yes you have random blokes who just pick something and don't pay attention to what the team uses. And most of them ignore any hints/suggestions about them switching to a more usefull class. Think to yourself, will a limit on the engi/spy/sniper/medic(?) really ruin your so called fun? Most of the time there are only 1-2 spies/snipers/medics on a team and for good reason. Having more then 2 is just detrimental (well with the exception of medic :p). In my opinion a limit on some classes on some maps, will only increase the fun factor because games last longer and have more actual gunplay going on. Instead of one side steamwalsing the other team because they are nubs who all picked sniper/spy. I mean teamstacking is getting worse with the day as well, so you end up with more nubs on your team if you actually care to be on the other team. I am really disappointed in some community/spa members who are obviously stacking a lot. Some switch after a couple of rounds, but most never switch. [edit] Yes most of the time it will balance out classwise/teamwise but thats after a mapchange/people on the loosing side leaving a mass and new more experienced players coming in. In the meantime regulars have a horrid time if they are on the unbalanced class/not-team stacked side. And it really ruins the fun of the game for them as well. Personally I think the more closely matched teams are the more fun there is to be had. A narrow hard fought victory is a lot more satisfying then steamrolling the oppostion in a minute, for me anyhow

Author:	Nirual [ 04 May 2008, 00:20 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
I'd be all for class limits, because too many of one class just makes the game annoying or boring. Or you have people that don't really do the team any good (like 4 snipers, or 5 medics with 3 of them being too busy hunting scouts to do their real job). Team Fortress is about the teamplay between classes, not an overload of the more popular ones. My personal idea is: Spy, Sniper, Engineer limited to 2, the rest to 3. Quote: Personally I think the more closely matched teams are the more fun there is to be had. A narrow hard fought victory is a lot more satisfying then steamrolling the oppostion in a minute, for me anyhow Agreed. I don't mind losing but if it's because of unfair teams, it's just annoying. Winning by steamrolling isn't that much fun either, especially not as engineer.

Author:	Greasy_greabo [ 04 May 2008, 13:20 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
Class limts suck, Im sorry but in the game ANY combination has a counter combination - If half your team is snipers on 2fort just say "look guys, can we have less snipers and more offence" half the guys will change. I love playing sniper - if it gets limited for other peoples fun then its a bit gash wouldnt u think? How would you like it if I said "look guys heavies are slow and useless imo lets limit them to 1" or "demomen cant shoot for shiz, they only get lucky rebounds - not useful except on attacking dustbowl imo!". You wouldn't you would all say things such as "pfft noob, attacking classes, fun!". Well at the end of the day limiting classes may enhance certain players fun but when im stuck running about as some class I dont wanna play Im not rly gonna be trying or having fun. Just leave it how valve intended! Say no to class limits! Mainly because they are gash!

Author:	DoC [ 04 May 2008, 13:43 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
[SpA]Greasy_greabo wrote: Class limts suck, Im sorry but in the game ANY combination has a counter combination - If half your team is snipers on 2fort just say "look guys, can we have less snipers and more offence" half the guys will change. I love playing sniper - if it gets limited for other peoples fun then its a bit gash wouldnt u think? How would you like it if I said "look guys heavies are slow and useless imo lets limit them to 1" or "demomen cant shoot for shiz, they only get lucky rebounds - not useful except on attacking dustbowl imo!". You wouldn't you would all say things such as "pfft noob, attacking classes, fun!". Well at the end of the day limiting classes may enhance certain players fun but when im stuck running about as some class I dont wanna play Im not rly gonna be trying or having fun. Just leave it how valve intended! Say no to class limits! Mainly because they are gash! I HATE when u play sniper!!! As for class limits... dunno, I think I'm beginnig to change my mind... The problem with 'how VALVe indends to be' is that they're just too many... ppl (not nabs, because newbies will listen to you if they want to learn) who are so selfish and just won't listen when a more skilled player asks them sth. Why is it fun in organized events (eg SpA vs Comm)? Because there everyone knows their place and they do not stack. If all players were mature and reasonable enough, there wouldn't be need of class limit. That's why VALVe intended changing classes whenever you want - to balance, to adapt. Sadly, most people just won't listen:( So @ that point I'm all for class limits. On the other hand, as Greasy said - every tactic has it's countertactic. Many engies? So they can't attack well, get more demos and/or pyros and medics. Loads of heavy-medic combos? Spys are just what we need. Etc. It's just up to the team to adapt. So @ that point I'm against class limits. But generally, if you really can buy... 'class reservation' (the same as slot reservation but maybe for less offered times) with SpA-points, I really have no problem with limits.

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Author:	Quattro [ 04 May 2008, 16:01 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
NO class limit, this topic is officially closed

Author:	Crovax20 [ 04 May 2008, 17:04 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
[SpA]Greasy_greabo wrote: Class limts suck, Im sorry but in the game ANY combination has a counter combination - If half your team is snipers on 2fort just say "look guys, can we have less snipers and more offence" half the guys will change. I love playing sniper - if it gets limited for other peoples fun then its a bit gash wouldnt u think? How would you like it if I said "look guys heavies are slow and useless imo lets limit them to 1" or "demomen cant shoot for shiz, they only get lucky rebounds - not useful except on attacking dustbowl imo!". You wouldn't you would all say things such as "pfft noob, attacking classes, fun!". Well at the end of the day limiting classes may enhance certain players fun but when im stuck running about as some class I dont wanna play Im not rly gonna be trying or having fun. Just leave it how valve intended! Say no to class limits! Mainly because they are gash! Thats not the same at all. We aren't saying those classes are bad, just that they turn the game into a bad game when to many people pick them. Besides if you can buy an exemption from class limits rule per map for about 5-10 points, would it really hurt you that much? Besides chances are you will never even notice the class limit, since 80% of the games things do sort themself out and there aren't more then 3 snipers/spy/engineers.

Author:	[SpA]moPP [ 04 May 2008, 18:03 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
A good example is a game yesterday, on Gravel Pit. Blue had A, and were attacking B. Red had a very good defense, so blue started to stack four snipers on attack, which made it even easier for red to defend. You could also throw in two engineers. This makes six people useless for the attacking team. That leaves 7 people to attack against 13 reds who are defending and bombarding the entrances, and sentries on top of that. Certain rules would prevent this. When ~50% of your team could just as well not play, doesn't that kind of suck the fun out of it? And regulars wouldn't be hurt by this if there were a SpA point system at work to buy a class slot (which in most cases won't be necessary).

Author:	DoC [ 04 May 2008, 18:22 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
[SpA]SaintK wrote: Ok, so here's the deal. If you really want classlimits, i need a propper detailed way on how to do this. I need a per map, per class, per team classification on the classlimiting. Once you've worked this out, it can be posted and discussed here. If we then think it would be an improvement over the current situation then we might implement it. I don't want to simply set a fixed class limit for all maps, as each map imo requires differant amounts from certain classes. We should think more bout this imho. If we come up with nice solutins (Crovax has some nice which can be modified a little if needed) I think there's no problem with limits (if you can buy class reservation with SpA-points ofc):)

Author:	Crovax20 [ 04 May 2008, 18:26 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
DoC wrote: [SpA]SaintK wrote: Ok, so here's the deal. If you really want classlimits, i need a propper detailed way on how to do this. I need a per map, per class, per team classification on the classlimiting. Once you've worked this out, it can be posted and discussed here. If we then think it would be an improvement over the current situation then we might implement it. I don't want to simply set a fixed class limit for all maps, as each map imo requires differant amounts from certain classes. We should think more bout this imho. If we come up with nice solutins (Crovax has some nice which can be modified a little if needed) I think there's no problem with limits (if you can buy class reservation with SpA-points ofc):) I think we are at the discussion part already :p

Author:	DoC [ 04 May 2008, 18:28 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
[SpA]Crovax20 wrote: DoC wrote: [SpA]SaintK wrote: Ok, so here's the deal. If you really want classlimits, i need a propper detailed way on how to do this. I need a per map, per class, per team classification on the classlimiting. Once you've worked this out, it can be posted and discussed here. If we then think it would be an improvement over the current situation then we might implement it. I don't want to simply set a fixed class limit for all maps, as each map imo requires differant amounts from certain classes. We should think more bout this imho. If we come up with nice solutins (Crovax has some nice which can be modified a little if needed) I think there's no problem with limits (if you can buy class reservation with SpA-points ofc):) I think we are at the discussion part already :p At discussion whether or not to have limits... and I meant discussion whether or not your solution is nice. And if not - what to change

Author:	Greasy_greabo [ 04 May 2008, 18:53 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
If people want to attack as four snipers and 2 engineers then whats the problem? they all have guns and legs. Ive been in plenty of offences where people engineer rush and build up foward sgs and tps. I can snipe people at close range... I can support the heavys and medics make sure 1) tehy dont get sniped 2) theres no engis on enemy sgs 3)medics are dealt with. Seriously, its the whole "if everyone plays the way i want them to itll be fun" reasoning... people dont pick classes to suit you they pick what they are good at or what they want to play. And please come on! "organised matches are fun because everyone plays there role" thats the definition of an organised match. Spa srvers are public servers, not world ranking professional server.

Author:	Crovax20 [ 04 May 2008, 19:07 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
[SpA]Greasy_greabo wrote: If people want to attack as four snipers and 2 engineers then whats the problem? they all have guns and legs. Ive been in plenty of offences where people engineer rush and build up foward sgs and tps. I can snipe people at close range... I can support the heavys and medics make sure 1) tehy dont get sniped 2) theres no engis on enemy sgs 3)medics are dealt with. Seriously, its the whole "if everyone plays the way i want them to itll be fun" reasoning... people dont pick classes to suit you they pick what they are good at or what they want to play. And please come on! "organised matches are fun because everyone plays there role" thats the definition of an organised match. Spa srvers are public servers, not world ranking professional server. have you at least tried to read my replies this time?

Author:	Greasy_greabo [ 04 May 2008, 19:12 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
No! too many boring writings. heres an analogy. Once upon a time a prince met a princess and they were happy. They wanted to get married. But then god put class limits on princesses and the princess had to become a heavy. The prince was not impressed and killed himself. Heres another one. Hitler was gonna be a good upstanding citizen till the League of nations decided to put class limits on good upstanding citizens. So in turn he had to spawn as a bad bad man. You see the pattern? Class limits = pain and unhappiness! Vote no on proposition 159! - No class limits plox! You damn classist bastards!

Author:	DoC [ 04 May 2008, 19:14 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
Ahahahahahahahaaha

Author:	Crovax20 [ 04 May 2008, 19:16 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
[SpA]Greasy_greabo wrote: No! too many boring writings. heres an analogy. Once upon a time a prince met a princess and they were happy. They wanted to get married. But then god put class limits on princesses and the princess had to become a heavy. The prince was not impressed and killed himself. Heres another one. Hitler was gonna be a good upstanding citizen till the League of nations decided to put class limits on good upstanding citizens. So in turn he had to spawn as a bad bad man. You see the pattern? Class limits = pain and unhappiness! Vote no on proposition 159! - No class limits plox! You damn classist bastards! he should have used his spa points to buy an exemption tbh

Author:	Greasy_greabo [ 04 May 2008, 19:18 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
Ok.. and whats the point of putting in class limits so regualrs can buy exemptions? I dont get it! A regular who wants to be a 5th sniper or a noob? its still a 5th sniper... which is bad in the world of class restrictions...

Author:	[SpA]moPP [ 04 May 2008, 20:13 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
If everyone just plays what they want instead of what's useful the whole 'team' concept is gone. Could just as well be FFA Deathmatch. And you can be the uberestestest sniper in the world, that doesn't mean the 3 others are. Of course there's good players who really can play sniper and/or engineer, that's not the point. What's ruining it is the others who can't :p and who play useless classes, especially while attacking. Camping on top of your dispenser and hitting your sentry with your wrench at spawn isn't exactly.. well, it's useless!

Author:	Pip [ 05 May 2008, 04:16 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
moPP wrote: Camping on top of your dispenser and hitting your sentry with your wrench at spawn isn't exactly.. well, it's useless! That was for spawnprotection.

Author:	Crovax20 [ 05 May 2008, 10:23 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
PipBoy 2000 wrote: moPP wrote: Camping on top of your dispenser and hitting your sentry with your wrench at spawn isn't exactly.. well, it's useless! That was for spawnprotection.

Author:	Greasy_greabo [ 05 May 2008, 12:28 ]
Post subject:	Re: Class limit
Class limiting is gash. Dont have it. End of story. well. If this was a story, it would be the end. But as its not. I dunno where im going with this. No class limits, yeh thatll do it. click submit and hope for the best time!