Damn I just have the cloak and dagger

No, it works perfectly fine the way it is Crovax, simply because while holding it you can't use any of your weapons, so you're defenseless.
And even if you survive a backstab by a spy with it, the enemy spy should usually be observant enough to realize that you use the cloak and dagger and to just watch out for when you uncloak.

Its hard to press mouse2 when youre about to eat a rocket, eh?
That makes it even more believable - eating a full rocket and another one with dr will make your enemy think they really killed you. Id certainly spycheck twice if I know he has the dr and "died" after only one hit.

imo the loud, LOUD, noise is the only thing that keeps it from being perfectly overpowered - the way it is atm makes it really nicely balanced I think (from what Ive seen from videos etc.).

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All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

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"I have come to shut this thread down. If I see anybody posting in here from now on, I will kill them.
In cold blood.
Thank you for your co-operation."
[SpA]DrMcMoist

He can't out-tank a Heavy, Crovax, since the damage reduction only applies to the first hit and the DR Spy is as vulnerable as any other Spy later. Think about it for a second - e.g. a headshot from a sniper will do 40 damage and trigger the cloak while a normal Spy would be able to not get ANY damage at all because, well, he wouldn't be running uncloaked in plain sight - a choice DR Spies can't make. Taking away the damage reduction would make the DR completely useless since you'd have a bunch of non-cloaked Spies running around and dying all the time since the DR doesn't provide you with ANY means of being truly sneaky.

Anyways - I really hate to discuss balance issues 3 or 4 days into the update even if the Steampowered.com forums are full of threads to improve/nerf/keep the DR as it is.

Still, I know that no rational argument will keep you from complaining, Crovax - I just wish you'd go back to whining about Stickies or perhaps the Sandman. ;-)

Back on topic.
I had my lucky day yesterday. I found an Ambassador, two actually, and later that night the Jarate and Cloak and Dagger. Now I'm only missing the Razorback.

Truth be told the Sniper unlocks are MUCH better than the Spy ones even though they should be praised for the fact that Valve managed to get Snipers move into action - they are drawn into the fray to throw the Jarate and use the Huntsman more effectively - good job!

So far my unlock rankings would be:

1. Huntsman - it really isn't better than the sniper rifle at distance simply for the fact that the arrows travel so slowly but is awesome ate close to medium range - I tested the accuracy yesterday and found out that the arrows almost don't arc at all. 0_o

2. Jarate - it has SO many uses and an incredibly large splash radius. Snipers can now actively help their team since mini-crits are not to be frowned upon.

3. Dead Ringer - adds to the Spy's survivability and encourages a different gameplay style which basically includes the Spy staying close to a choke point, so he can run back and forth since it's easier to get through choke-points with the DR. However, it doesn't provide you with the option to "work behind enemy lines" for extended periods of time since you are in plain sight most of the time and have no influence on that.

4. Razorback - nice concept and all, especially as long as there are so many Spies but Jarate is much better in most cases. I guess "regular" Snipers camping in one spot all the time will find the Razorback more useful since it protects them against virtually the only class that can get to them.

5. Cloak and Dagger - now we're getting into crap territory. The C&D drains IMMENSELY fast and doesn't even recharge that quickly. People who think they will be able to remain cloaked much longer than with the regular cloak are mistaken - with the regular cloak it's far easier to pick up ammo to recharge it and remain hidden than wait extremely long for the C&D to fully charge. I tested the cloak's range and on achievementbox_pyro, a very small map, you can barely get beyond the CP to the gate (if you know the layout of the map). Completely useless and doesn't add anything to the gameplay.

6. Ambassador - yes, it was broken and overpowered initially but now after the fix it became useless - by functioning normally? ;-)
First and foremost the first shot isn't as accurate as advertised. Second of all a headshot isn't a full critical hit - just a mini-crit for +35% damage. Thirdly the headshots register or don't register pretty randomly - TF2 isn't Counter-Strike and beyond the Sniper's weapons this functionality is pretty dodgy. Considering how the gun does -15% damage you'd have to hit a headshot EVERY second shot for it to be any viable option to the regular revolver. But wait! Even then it isn't because due to the horrible accuracy after the first shot you have to WAIT between shots which reduces the damage output even further. Use it to take down Snipers at medium ranges perhaps (as one achievement suggests)? Riiight - after the first shot (which invariably won't kill anybody) you will never ever be able to hit with a second one until the enemy moved away or got into his attacking range.
Absolutely and utterly useless...

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

But... but... the Sandman IS retarded

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All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

I think that damage reduction works as long as you are cloaked. Thats what I experienced.

backstabbed you a couple of times yesterday and deadringer cancels it out basically

Anyhow to get back on topic

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

The ambassador is still broken I think since it does no damage to buildings or stickys.

That is, if you even manage to hit a building, let alone a sticky with it. ;-)

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

Ambassador should shoot miniature cannon balls.


Also needles need to stick to people and fall off after a few seconds of movement.

Got the Huntsman and the Heavy Helmet last night amoungst several repeats

The Tranq gun.

3x Jarate, 3x Razorback, 2x Bonk, 2x The Ubersaw, 1x Backburner, 1x Natascha.

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slurper

Jarate

huntsman is so awesome
finally got it

and you've already headshotted me a million time you bast

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ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: true genius
ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: doesn't make sense
ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: till you're senseless

1 blutsauger and 1 kritzkrieg. I hate Valve.

Join the club.

Membership requirements are not getting the items you want

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

yey im in

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"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving."

/me trades useless Spy stuff for Scout stuff or Medic hat!

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

me trades ambassador or dead ringer for huntsman or jarate or other spy watch

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"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving."

Another razorback

Another huntsman

2 Natashas in one hour...

About the OP of the Dead Ringer once again: Now that the free weekend is over and more and more people are getting used to spycheck twice, it's has become somewhat harder to trick the enemy. However, you still have to consider that the DR grants you almost total immunity to damage as long as you have it activated. Backstabs, fully charged Sniper headshots, 8 stickies at once, a level 3 sentry: All of these deal about 4 to 5 damage when you use the DR.

Another advantage of the DR in contrast to the common Invisibility Watch is that it triggers your invisibility instantly. With the old watch you could have had an idea where the spy was running because it took about one second to get fully invisible. To take down a spy whose DR has just been triggered you need much more luck or a pyro. Of course, soldiers and demos can fire their rockets, respectively their nades and stickies in every direction, but from what I've experienced today that's rarely the case. The same thing goes for all of the other classes. (Except for the pyros of course)

It's not that the DR itself is overpowered, it's that it's far better than the Invisibility Watch.
A good comparison would be the Blutsauger and the default syringe gun of the medic. Almost everybody prefers the health bonus you get from shooting with the Blutsauger and thus sacrifices his crit chances.
It's like Valve missed the actual purpose of the DR. It should be an alternative item, however, it became a better one. I cannot name one aspect of the IW that the DR doesn't have.

Still, the DR helped me a lot, which is why I personally hope that Valve won't nerf it.

DR makes you rely on disguise more, because you have no theoretically permanent invisibility. The tricky part is to get behind the enemy lines with DR, but that depends to a large degree on the map too.

In my experience, the eight seconds of invisibility usually suffice. A good example would be 2Fort. The enemy team had sentries on the lower level of the stage room. I just ran into the enemy's fire, thus triggered my DR, and there was enough time to make it to the top of the spiral.

I should mention that I don't think I am totally right and the DR doesn't have any downsides. It's just that before the update I died a lot as a spy and was happy when I could get at least one backstab. Now, with the DR, I get to make a lot of more backstabs and I don't think that my skill suddenly increased

Sawyer - are you you sure that you got damage reduction for the whole duration of the DR? It's absolutely not what happened in my experience... Yes, there's certain "window" when you're immune to damage but it lasts perhaps half a second - not the full 8 seconds. Also - backstabs by a spy actually reduced me to half my life...

In my opinion the DR is simply better for n00b Spies. I also agree that it makes disguises work again - kind of. You are still being spy-checked but can now turn it into to your advantage. Pyros are still your demise most of the time but with the DR the chance that you die from "after burn" is much smaller since you can extinguish the flames yourself.

Skilled spies rely more on their cloak than their disguises and that's where the regular cloak has an advantage over the DR. If you know precisely how to move around the map and when to cloak or uncloak because you are in "blind spots" the DR might not be for you since it will impede your skill. Yes, it doesn't activate instantly but usually, if you're a skilled spy, there's nobody to look for you since you killed them all. :-D

So far I heard many people express their love for the DR but at the same time players who I know as good spies don't actually use it although they have found it...
Yeah - but I think this actually is map dependent. We all know how difficult it is to sneak by as a spy on 2fort thanks to its awful chokepoint design and in this case the DR helps. However, on more open maps it's practically useless. E.g. I tried it out on Badlands and virtually every time my cloak triggered because I got shot I was in a place where I wasn't near any "stabbable" enemy or even a good hiding place and hence could only run back and try again.

I think my analysis of the DR is accurate in that it's designed for "chokepoint 0wn4g3" while the usual cloak is much more subtle and works best when you are deep behind enemy lines or absolutely sure that the enemy won't be able to pursue you. The hard part is getting behind enemy lines with the regular cloak. ^^

By the way - I found that the Dead Ringer is an awesome part of "psychological warfare" where you might leave the enemy at a disadvantage even though you actually died.

E.g. today I was killed twice by players who knew that I have a Dead Ringer. They asked me at the next opportunity if they REALLY killed me the previous time since they went looking for a spy for the next 30 seconds. ;-)

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

No, but what I meant with "as long as you have it activated" was the time before your invisibility is triggered. And if I recall correctly a spy backstabbed me the day before yesterday and I had about 100 HP left. Yes, that's more than 4 - 5 damage, but still.. a huge reduction.
Yupp, I agree that the pyro still is the spy's worst nemesis, but the same thing goes for spies using the IW
I can't really say anything about that, since im not really a skilled spy =D
And there we have another advantage