SpecialAttack.net :: The New Griefing Rules

At first I thought these rules were okay, but it seems that now these rules have been set regular players do nothing but try to abuse them.
If someone ressed their build they dig under locked doors and walls to gain access to the things inside.

I'm really not digging how people are abusing this and causing intentional grief to other players.

If I were to leave my back door unlocked one night and a burglar came and took all of my shit, that'd still be theft. Rules in any sort of society/community are based on basic morals.
I just think people should just stay out of other people's stuff. As I see it the /res function is to protect yourself from intentional griefers. Now it's some sort of tool to define liabilities if someone breaks the rules.

If you protect only small sections of your build or attempt to subvert the purpose of the Residence plugin by zoning only the outer wall, it will not be considered grief if a players tunnels or scaffolds around your defences. Any unprotected build, even if it is part of a larger protected build, is fair game as long as you keep in mind what is reasonable and proportional, as stated

I might point out here that the issue Energy just had was apparently not clearly detected as to who griefed, but did detect who stole an installed portion of the build, a piston had been removed, which is considered greif and is being dealt with. Clearly this is also a case of either not using residence or not using it properly. It's not as if we have simply said "Too bad, so sad, no residence no recourse" although there are appropriate times for this being said. Had residence been used adequately, I doubt we would be having this particular conversation

If a player is trying to get in somebody's home and triggers an avalanche of gravel or sand that goes on in the residence they're trying to get in, the residence is damaged. Is this considered grief or an accident?

heldplayer wrote:

Good question, or is it a good trap? LOL Honestly, if it is an accident then it is probably not there fault, under these rules....

RoseAmazon wrote:

Good question, or is it a good trap? LOL Honestly, if it is an accident then it is probably not there fault, under these rules....

Yeah, and it's not that common.

Whenever I sneak into someone's place I prefer to just go in see if the chests are locked and leave the build intact when I leave it than to blatantly destroy everything just to be a jerk..and yes, I admit I'm a thief

Hard Question: what happens if i used /res to protect my residence but then set build true for everyone? (I can't make up a reason why i would, but lets assume someone does.) Will destoying blocks to steal items be considered grief in that case?

Question: How can we know if unprotected houses are owned by guests (breaking in forbidden) or by member+ who just didn't /res them (breaking in allowed)?

If we implement that we would not need LWC at all.

Until people have been back on and had a chance to lock their chests, stealing will just have to be curbed is all.

I think that there should be an addition to the rules.

When a plugin that protects certain thing breaks, people are not allowed to take from what has lost its protection because they payed for it (If it's residences that breaks).

Arg LWC broke? So we have to lock everything again or is it back in order? I'll only be able to get on tomorrow..

are we allowed to take down railroads as long as we intend to give the stuff back?

heldplayer wrote:

How exactly are the general mc public suppose to know when such a plugin breaks? Suppose we have someone on there spamming it in chat every minute, that would be fun.

NOTICE: STEALING FROM UNPORTECTED CHESTS IS NOT ALLOWED FOR NOW

NOTICE: LWC BORKED UP, PROTECT YOUR CHESTS AGAIN

NOTICE: THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME I SAY THIS

Author:	[SpA]Howard [ 09 Aug 2011, 18:09 ]
Post subject:	The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
Please post any discussions, questions or suggestions regarding the new Grief rules here:

Author:	RoseAmazon [ 09 Aug 2011, 18:32 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
I can adapt, but prefer it where grief is simply destruction or theft of another's property and folks stayed out of other's mines. Eh, life is change

Author:	[SpA]ZEnergy [ 19 Aug 2011, 21:35 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
Just a question when someone griefs and steals items by destroying blocks that don't need to be destroyed etc, can we get our items back by spawning or something if the person doesn't come back?

Author:	[SpA]MrOrange [ 19 Aug 2011, 21:51 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
At first I thought these rules were okay, but it seems that now these rules have been set regular players do nothing but try to abuse them. If someone ressed their build they dig under locked doors and walls to gain access to the things inside. I'm really not digging how people are abusing this and causing intentional grief to other players. If I were to leave my back door unlocked one night and a burglar came and took all of my shit, that'd still be theft. Rules in any sort of society/community are based on basic morals. I just think people should just stay out of other people's stuff. As I see it the /res function is to protect yourself from intentional griefers. Now it's some sort of tool to define liabilities if someone breaks the rules.

Author:	[SpA]heldplayer [ 19 Aug 2011, 22:52 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
[SpA]MrOrange wrote: At first I thought these rules were okay, but it seems that now these rules have been set regular players do nothing but try to abuse them. If someone ressed their build they dig under locked doors and walls to gain access to the things inside. I'm really not digging how people are abusing this and causing intentional grief to other players. If I were to leave my back door unlocked one night and a burglar came and took all of my shit, that'd still be theft. Rules in any sort of society/community are based on basic morals. I just think people should just stay out of other people's stuff. As I see it the /res function is to protect yourself from intentional griefers. Now it's some sort of tool to define liabilities if someone breaks the rules. Think of this: [SpA]Howard wrote: If you protect only small sections of your build or attempt to subvert the purpose of the Residence plugin by zoning only the outer wall, it will not be considered grief if a players tunnels or scaffolds around your defences. Any unprotected build, even if it is part of a larger protected build, is fair game as long as you keep in mind what is reasonable and proportional, as stated Now, if a player /res'd his build, but didn't /res his floor or anything under it, it would not be violating the rules if you dig under it unless you do too much damage. What you are stating is exactly what I've described here.

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The New Griefing Rules - A discussion https://forum.specialattack.net/viewtopic.php?t=11487	Page 1 of 2

Author:	[SpA]MrOrange [ 19 Aug 2011, 22:55 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
Which is exactly why I'm posting this in a thread where we discuss what we think about the new griefing rules (the ones you quoted). Thanks for reading the topic title and knowing what this thread is about before barging in. Edit: also, zoning a large area but forgetting the ground is not in any way subverting the purpose of the /res command.

Author:	JMPanty [ 19 Aug 2011, 23:02 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
Residence is here to prevent theft, if you didn't res your floor it's your fault as well if you leave your door open. Also, anyone smart enough to use res is also smart enough to lock their chests and doors. either by negating outsiders flags or simply by using /cprivate. The means are there, specially this last one I mentioned wich is FREE. May sound as abuse, wrong, bad behavior, etc., to me it just just sounds clumsy from whoever let himself get stolen (unless it's a new player ofc). For example, I don't care if anyone enters one of my res's, only I have rights to do anything in them, they're creeper protected, no firespread, every chest is locked and the important doors are locked also. If I log in and see an intruder I'll just laugh at him...and then kill him.

Author:	OneYankeeRebel [ 19 Aug 2011, 23:08 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
I might point out here that the issue Energy just had was apparently not clearly detected as to who griefed, but did detect who stole an installed portion of the build, a piston had been removed, which is considered greif and is being dealt with. Clearly this is also a case of either not using residence or not using it properly. It's not as if we have simply said "Too bad, so sad, no residence no recourse" although there are appropriate times for this being said. Had residence been used adequately, I doubt we would be having this particular conversation. The suspect wasn't online at the time of discovery. When he's found to be online there will be further investigation and dialog. We've fluctuated form instant ban no warning for petty greif to a warn first, kick then ban so we have a kinder and gentler form of law to attempt to keep n00bs, and something in between. I believe the root of the problem is that we have those who want to bash blocks in total bliss and harmony while others want complete anarchy and chaos. We have attempted to find a middle ground here. I guess this is why we have freebuild and Survival MultiPlayer, though my experience in freebuild was far more anarchy and chaos than our SMP ever has been. Then again, isn't anarchy and chaos the only true freedom? We still lock our chests. Residence works, if done correctly nobody is breaking any of your build, nobody can move within your build, nobody can use your doors, chests, trapdoors, water, fire, lava, pistons, etc. We continually encourage folks to read the forum where all is revealed, the only reason for ignorance here is choice. We are unable at this point to force the reading and force the use of all the tools available to protect their builds and valuables. Had we not these tools, ops would be running non stop to check grief and lost items. Without the op tools we have we would be bombarded by false claims to replace items which were never stolen and self greif for whatever reason... sympathy, attention, false accusations to get somebody banned. Attempts are still made by those unfamiliar with our tool capability, but we do have the tools and the mostly do work. So I guess this is my long winded way of saying the situation with Energies loss is being handled, as per our kinder and gentler rules and methods. When people come saying this isn't working, please try and have alternative solutions? In the end, this is SMP. Protecting ones things is part of the S. There are those unfortunates on a steady diet of lead based paint chips who of course are unable to survive without huge amounts of help... but we have to alternative world for them (yet).

Author:	JMPanty [ 19 Aug 2011, 23:25 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
OneYankeeRebel wrote: I might point out here that the issue Energy just had was apparently not clearly detected as to who griefed, but did detect who stole an installed portion of the build, a piston had been removed, which is considered greif and is being dealt with. Clearly this is also a case of either not using residence or not using it properly. It's not as if we have simply said "Too bad, so sad, no residence no recourse" although there are appropriate times for this being said. Had residence been used adequately, I doubt we would be having this particular conversation I actually missed Energy's post. Yes it is also part of the rules that if someone destroys/picks up objects of value, that is also considered grief. Breaking a wall to get into someone's house or digging a tunnel is ok, breaking more than that is laso grief. Whenever I sneak into someone's place I prefer to just go in see if the chests are locked and leave the build intact when I leave it than to blatantly destroy everything just to be a jerk..and yes, I admit I'm a thief

Author:	RoseAmazon [ 20 Aug 2011, 04:34 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
MrOrange, I am in the minority here in that I agree with you and prefer the old way. However, that said I do understand why it is being done this way now, and this is supposed to be a trial period (unless I am mistaken?). I had hopes it would be seen as a failure and we would return to the old ways. Unfortunately there is much to what Howard and Yankee have said, in that we do still protect quests to our utmost, and that residency is well within the means of most members who do more than run around like chickens with their heads cut off. Take a look at the money stats in game by typing /money top 50... it will show you that most members have thousands to their names, there are ways to make money quickly. One player who when he became a member didnt have enough money to zone his not small build, so he went out and in ten minutes had more than enough for the .05 per block cost and we quickly had his build protected. I am also noticing a real, benefit (slaps self for saying so) to having quests not being able to zone, 1, we are helping them and protecting them more; 2, they learn a little more and appreciate zoning when they become a member. I still agree with you, theft is wrong game or not. Yeah, I am old school. If I find the culprit behind Energy's loss and he still has the items somewhere (we have not found his chests yet) he will be giving all back + some, interest ya know. Glad folks are finally chiming in on this thread!

Author:	[SpA]Howard [ 20 Aug 2011, 08:55 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
From a purely moral standpoint, theft is of course wrong. The problem I have with applying this to our world is two-fold: 1) LWC is free, easy to us and the single most commonly used plugin in the world of SMP. Failure to use it is nothing more than an indication of your failure to read the roles/forums/message boards/chat when you arrive on the server and that level of ignorance speaks volumes about you. 2) MC is a game based purely and solely around gathering things of value. If we cannot steal in this game, we may as well turn PVP off globally and declare it an extension of freebuild. Without the need to protect what you have earned, I believe a large part of the ideal of this game would be lost. The old method of declaring everything a player owns/creates/digs-in as utterly sacrosanct and beyond the reach of other players led to a dead server and a map littered with ridiculous, sprawling builds. The entire, defining point of SMP is the Survival part. Remember that first night in SMP singleplayer, huddled in a mud box with no torches or equipment and the monsters moaning outside while a storm raged overhead? That is SMP. It is building beautiful things against the odds of the server. In implementing the Residence plugin I think we have the potential for a really well balanced game. The danger is there when you start off into the wild and continues to be present as you have to venture out from the security of your residence to ensure you have made enough money for the next months rent. The problem is of course that we do not have a balanced game. Money is FAR too easy to earn and there is no need to spend it. My plan was that the purchase and rent system alone would restrict player build sizes as you would naturally only build what you could afford to protect but people insist on building beyond their means: FAR beyond them. To that end I will be proposing some sharp and indeed harsh changes to the way we do things around here. All that said however, I am pretty appalled at the attitude of the people who spend their time on the server looking for ways to rip people off instead of buckling down and making their own mark on the map. While I did make mention that those who try and abuse the Residence mod by only protecting certain areas of their build, I was not speaking of those who use the mod selectively to protect what is most important. What I also note is that those people who are the main culprits in this ever-escalating nonsense are those with the least to lose. Between those with fake, admin-assisted residences, those who have never built anything bigger than a small box and those who insist on being nomadic and living nowhere, the people who are behind this plague of break-ins are those who are bringing nothing to the server right now and I think they have had life too easy. I would advise that those who spend their time in these ways may shortly find the scales tipped against them. While this server has many rules and I demand that all who play on it abide by them, none of those rules specify that the owner cannot be an angry and vengeful God...

Author:	[SpA]heldplayer [ 21 Aug 2011, 20:38 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
If a player is trying to get in somebody's home and triggers an avalanche of gravel or sand that goes on in the residence they're trying to get in, the residence is damaged. Is this considered grief or an accident?

Author:	RoseAmazon [ 24 Aug 2011, 19:01 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
heldplayer wrote: If a player is trying to get in somebody's home and triggers an avalanche of gravel or sand that goes on in the residence they're trying to get in, the residence is damaged. Is this considered grief or an accident? Good question, or is it a good trap? LOL Honestly, if it is an accident then it is probably not there fault, under these rules....

Author:	[SpA]heldplayer [ 24 Aug 2011, 19:21 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
RoseAmazon wrote: heldplayer wrote: If a player is trying to get in somebody's home and triggers an avalanche of gravel or sand that goes on in the residence they're trying to get in, the residence is damaged. Is this considered grief or an accident? Good question, or is it a good trap? LOL Honestly, if it is an accident then it is probably not there fault, under these rules.... Yeah, and it's not that common.

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Author:	[SpA]Howard [ 24 Aug 2011, 19:31 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
heldplayer wrote: RoseAmazon wrote: Good question, or is it a good trap? LOL Honestly, if it is an accident then it is probably not there fault, under these rules.... Yeah, and it's not that common. I've only seen one incident of it. Its not grief.

Author:	Pystro [ 24 Aug 2011, 20:34 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
JMPanty wrote: Whenever I sneak into someone's place I prefer to just go in see if the chests are locked and leave the build intact when I leave it than to blatantly destroy everything just to be a jerk..and yes, I admit I'm a thief Yes, i also sneak into others builds whenever i can do so without breaking something. Its just like playing lottery: i find almost all chests being locked, but im still hoping to hit the jackpot one day... I see and appreciate the main ideas behind the stealing allowed rule: Players have to keep their builds at a size they can afford to protect. Builds without /res are put under additional threads (theft with "tunneling", theft without tunneling, "tunneling" in futile attempts to steal). That way admins hope to reduce the chances that intentional grief can happen (People stop relying on admins to fix and refund their stuff if burglars break in; all residences are /res-ed ideally). More fun trying to rob/steal others stuff Question: How can we know if unprotected houses are owned by guests (breaking in forbidden) or by member+ who just didn't /res them (breaking in allowed)? Hard Question: what happens if i used /res to protect my residence but then set build true for everyone? (I can't make up a reason why i would, but lets assume someone does.) Will destoying blocks to steal items be considered grief in that case?

Author:	[SpA]Howard [ 24 Aug 2011, 21:24 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
Pystro wrote: Hard Question: what happens if i used /res to protect my residence but then set build true for everyone? (I can't make up a reason why i would, but lets assume someone does.) Will destoying blocks to steal items be considered grief in that case? Very easy question. If you set build true for all and someone breaks in without griefing then they have done nothing wrong. That's just obvious

Author:	JMPanty [ 24 Aug 2011, 23:14 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
Pystro wrote: Question: How can we know if unprotected houses are owned by guests (breaking in forbidden) or by member+ who just didn't /res them (breaking in allowed)? I'm curious about this one too, I actually don't make stealing a habit (probably only done it 1 time a week in average), but last time I found a open door that was protected and inside a unprotected chest with some good items. Wasn't sure if the owner was a member or a guest so I decided to make a 50/50 rule for myself: in case of doubt I only take half of each stackable item

Author:	[SpA]mbl111 [ 25 Aug 2011, 00:10 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
But if they are smart enough to lock their doors but "forget" or dont bother locking their chests would it not be fair game for anyone who finds it? I also figure if some people have 50% of their chests locked (Seen it happen before) would the stuff in the unlocked chests not be fair game aswell?

Author:	Destoned [ 25 Aug 2011, 00:15 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
We should not have rules that can be thrown aside based on whether a plugin in working or not. Minecraft is everchanging, and these changes will result in problems for some plugins. The rules Must be concrete. Today (or lastnight) LWC broke, unlocking everyones chests. People were being told that they can no longer steal from unlocked chests (Atleast for the time being). We cant manipulate the rules for ocasions such as this, so i propose we change the rules in this area. Stealing from Any chest you do not own, should not be allowed. People can use LWC to extend permission to others to allow them access to the chest, as well as help prevent someone from stealing things. Someone that steals, having knowledge the rules or not, would be warned and they would be required to return any item/block from the chest they aquired it from. A second incident could thus be met with a ban EDIT: i know Creative and Survival are different, but grief is no different in one than it is in another. In freebuild we zone things to prevent grief, that does not mean any unzoned area is free game. Grief is hindering the experience of the game for a player intentionally or unintentionally. If im not mistaken, people arent having fun when someone breaks into they're house and steal things. We use zones in Freebuild the same way we should be using Res and LWC in Survival.

Author:	[SpA]Howard [ 25 Aug 2011, 00:37 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
If we implement that we would not need LWC at all. I think that theft should still be part of the game. Today's fiasco was a one off. LWC will be around for a long while and has a good developer behind it. We can rely on it being updated. Until people have been back on and had a chance to lock their chests, stealing will just have to be curbed is all.

Author:	Destoned [ 25 Aug 2011, 00:47 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
[SpA]Howard wrote: If we implement that we would not need LWC at all. Not if you think of LWC as a way of extending access of that chest to other players. [SpA]Howard wrote: Until people have been back on and had a chance to lock their chests, stealing will just have to be curbed is all. That makes the rules seem very malleable. What about the kids starting school that may not be on for some time? How are you going to determine enough time has passed for everyone to relock they're chests.

Author:	[SpA]heldplayer [ 25 Aug 2011, 02:50 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
I think that there should be an addition to the rules. When a plugin that protects certain thing breaks, people are not allowed to take from what has lost its protection because they payed for it (If it's residences that breaks).

Author:	JMPanty [ 25 Aug 2011, 03:02 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
Arg LWC broke? So we have to lock everything again or is it back in order? I'll only be able to get on tomorrow..

Author:	RoseAmazon [ 25 Aug 2011, 03:35 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
But this isnt the first time lwc has broke or been broken by another pluggin... and we had to do the same scrambling around locking everyone's chests and trying to keep things that had been protected from getting stolen and as Destoned said, not all see the forums before getting on to play and some may not be able to play for days to weeks at a time. Leaves quite the mess behind.

Author:	Destoned [ 25 Aug 2011, 04:29 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
heldplayer wrote: I think that there should be an addition to the rules. When a plugin that protects certain thing breaks, people are not allowed to take from what has lost its protection because they payed for it (If it's residences that breaks). How exactly are the general mc public suppose to know when such a plugin breaks? Suppose we have someone on there spamming it in chat every minute, that would be fun. JMPanty wrote: Arg LWC broke? So we have to lock everything again or is it back in order? I'll only be able to get on tomorrow.. Yes you need to relock all chests

Author:	gardoure [ 25 Aug 2011, 04:55 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
are we allowed to take down railroads as long as we intend to give the stuff back?

Author:	RoseAmazon [ 25 Aug 2011, 05:24 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
gardoure wrote: are we allowed to take down railroads as long as we intend to give the stuff back? no.

Author:	[SpA]heldplayer [ 25 Aug 2011, 15:06 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
Destoned wrote: heldplayer wrote: I think that there should be an addition to the rules. When a plugin that protects certain thing breaks, people are not allowed to take from what has lost its protection because they payed for it (If it's residences that breaks). How exactly are the general mc public suppose to know when such a plugin breaks? Suppose we have someone on there spamming it in chat every minute, that would be fun. Well as long as There is no trustee+ to use the /broadcast command, I just shout the notices. What I currently shout: Quote: NOTICE: STEALING FROM UNPORTECTED CHESTS IS NOT ALLOWED FOR NOW NOTICE: LWC BORKED UP, PROTECT YOUR CHESTS AGAIN NOTICE: THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME I SAY THIS Caps work so well to get attention to the public.

Author:	[SpA]mbl111 [ 25 Aug 2011, 15:13 ]
Post subject:	Re: The New Griefing Rules - A discussion
Well if howard wants i have an auto announcer plugin that sends a message every X minutes