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Factions - A Second Discussion
https://forum.specialattack.net/viewtopic.php?t=13119		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  [SpA]Howard [ 07 Apr 2012, 13:51 ]
Post subject:  Factions - A Second Discussion
I can see that my initial suggestion about implementing the Factions plugin was not received well. As I am about to implement the new Bedlam map I thought i would take another crack at it and try and make my point more clearly.

I suggested implementing the Factions mod for 2 reasons. Firstly, a GREAT many guests ask for it as it is a very popular mod and secondly as I think it might help with the issues we have with Bedlam.

Bedlam was designed in response to an over whelming amount of requests to have a true, unlimited, do-as-you-please section of SMP that mirrored the way the Temp Maps work. I supplied this but the simple fact it, the place is hated. Having no protections may sound good but for some reason, no one is embracing it. Vast towns and communities have sprung up in each and every test map with people working together really well to produce some great work but no such thing has ever been attempted in Bedlam and I have no idea why that is (well I have ideas, but none of them are polite). So, as it is, Bedlam is a waste land of pillars and lava, filled with solo-builds, half burned and destroyed and with just about every resource torn from the land. It's a mess.

Implementing Factions might help. Here's how it might work:
- Factions would ONLY be implemented in Bedlam. Hub would stay exactly as it is.
- Factions could ONLY be created by R or M+ ranks. No one man factions made by every guest
- Setting up a faction could carry a substantial cost
- Having Factions offers a real way to protect your stuff in Bedlam. For each member you recruit to your faction, you gain more influence, allowing you to build larger and larger protected structures.
- Having Factions would persuade people to work together. Getting killed now becomes a HUGE deal as you will lose the influence you carry for your Faction, essentially shrinking their protected zone.
- Factions could make people actually play the game properly. No more killing yourself at low health, no more ignoring farming, no more ignoring resources.
- Factions would encourage people to play better, act better in chat (who wants to join the faction of a total moron?) and speak to guests more in an attempt to persuade them to join you.


These are all just ideas (ideals really) but I think there is some genuine potential. I too hoped that Bedlam would be a good thing, a Temp Map brought to SMP proper, but no one has embraced that or even tried to do anything organised in there. Right now Bedlam, is just a griefing zone for idiots to spam kill and abuse our good nature and all that does is scare guests off and we are getting very thin on numbers these days (the reason I am coming down so hard on people who act like total idiots in Bedlam).

Something needs to be done and this is my suggestion. Feel free to make your own.
Author:  [SpA]Ivanosauros [ 07 Apr 2012, 17:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
I like the sound of this, however the idea of a large group of people all aiming to kill me at once as a random guest in bedlam for the purpose of pillaging my goods (where I'm most likely an illiterate nincompoop) worries me, especially when I'm nine years old and unable to ask for a faction invite in the first place. Though, this is sort of a non-issue since people like that don't go far here anyway.

This whole idea of factions brings to mind the idea of guilds and clans, something that only usually works with very large populations. Maybe SMP is a bit underpopulated to have more than two large groups of angry mobs lynching each other at once?

Only suggestion I have is: Have no player-made clans - have them set up beforehand and make players able to join them. Three or four, maybe? That'd stop the whole process of trillions of factions appearing in a given day and being unused the next, though I can't say I know much about the factions plugin or how it works. Perhaps make a cooldown for joining/disbanding a faction so you can't hop every three minutes.

It'd make it a lot more solid a system, and give people an idea of where we want them to go.
Author:  [SpA]Howard [ 07 Apr 2012, 17:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
Both good points, Ivan. Firstly I am going to look and see if we can make none faction members immune from faction PvP. That might help with the first point. Second point is something spike and I already discussed. We are considring having premade factions, managed by ops that people can apply to join.
Author:  [SpA]Ivanosauros [ 07 Apr 2012, 17:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
sounds good to me.
Author:  [SpA]JuncoPartner [ 07 Apr 2012, 17:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
oo premade factions sounds good, could even tie in with the biomes. Though I still don't think non-guests will build there unless they can protect their chests via some means, even if it's expensive.
Author:  [SpA]Ivanosauros [ 07 Apr 2012, 17:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
[SpA]JuncoPartner wrote:
oo premade factions sounds good, could even tie in with the biomes. Though I still don't think non-guests will build there unless they can protect their chests via some means, even if it's expensive.
hmm, island corsairs and desert raiders?
Author:  [SpA]Howard [ 07 Apr 2012, 20:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
[SpA]JuncoPartner wrote:
oo premade factions sounds good, could even tie in with the biomes. Though I still don't think non-guests will build there unless they can protect their chests via some means, even if it's expensive.
Yeah, still need to do something about general protections in Bedlam, but I gotta be honest: I have no idea what. LWC, even an expensive and limited LWC, will just lead to too many issues in my opinion.

I dunno - anyone else got any suggestions?
Author:  [SpA]heldplayer [ 07 Apr 2012, 22:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
How about we allow everybody to create 1 single lock on a small chest (no double chests allowed) and let them pay heavilly, that way people might take more concern in what they lock. Though even 1 single lock might be too much, seeing as they could possibly still give problems.

IF the factions plugin gets implemented I highly suggest to disable dynmap in Bedlam though, as it might give away vital information about factions.
Author:  Jam ezzz [ 07 Apr 2012, 22:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
It would be good to have Pre-made factions, but then again, would be fun to have ones that you could create yourself.This could mean that people could join pre-made ones or they could pay (lots of) money to create a new one. I think if people were paying vast amounts of money to create something then it would be taken as something even more important not to risk.

You could have plots of Res's in Bedlam that you could sell to people if they want to truly secure their chests?
Author:  [SpA]Ivanosauros [ 08 Apr 2012, 04:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
No - Don't bother with too many res's and don't use chest locking at all. This completely ruins the purpose of bedlam, and of factions.

You get some and you lose some. You want to keep some? Make your faction's hall out of a relatively common block, depending on the theme of the faction. Then res it so that nobody can build, but everyone can use. If the factions plugin can make faction specific res, do that. Otherwise, make it a password system for opening doors. With redstone or the good ol' harry potter method, speak the password at the wall and it opens.

This safehouse would be quite small and extremely dire in terms of resources - Expansion would definitely be necessary, giving incentive to claim territory and defend it. However, there would be room for (one?) chest(s) in order to put your faction's greatly treasured items in, have your enchanting table, and the more or less expensive things that raiding would irritate you hugely over. This prevents a single raid from absolutely crippling your faction when everyone's offline, and kind of prevents pillaging.

Of course, I might be going too into this. It could ruin the whole idea of bedlam, but one of the reasons why people hate it is because of its inherent lack of valuable item security. Perhaps this is needed to seal the deal of a permanently populated Bedlam?
Author:  [SpA]Howard [ 08 Apr 2012, 13:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
Ok - there STILL seems to be confusion about how factions works so let me try again...

Forming a faction gives you an area of protection, exactly the same as creating a Res. Having people JOIN your faction increases that area, enlarging the protection. Protected faction land ("claimed land") is completely protected from mobs and block destruction therefore it being visible on Dynmap will give nothing away. Dynmap will in fact be a very valuable tool to show how well a given faction is doing.
Do we get it now? :roll:

As to protections - I don't think you can limit the number of protections you can have with LWC (though you can limit WHAT can be protected and how much it costs). No matter how it is implemented, LWC in Bedlam will be a bad idea. People will be able to turn up and protect a given amount of blocks, locking them permanently unless they are manually cleared by admin. You argue that the locks should be expensive but the whole purpose of this exercise is to make it so that a new player will not lose their stuff the moment they log out so the cost CANNOT be too high. The map will simply be peppered with locked blocks - it will be a farce.
Author:  [SpA]ZEnergy [ 08 Apr 2012, 14:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
[SpA]Howard wrote:
[SpA]JuncoPartner wrote:
oo premade factions sounds good, could even tie in with the biomes. Though I still don't think non-guests will build there unless they can protect their chests via some means, even if it's expensive.
Yeah, still need to do something about general protections in Bedlam, but I gotta be honest: I have no idea what. LWC, even an expensive and limited LWC, will just lead to too many issues in my opinion.

I dunno - anyone else got any suggestions?
My idea is that you should be able to res or protect the walls of your home (and the doors ofc), but if someone manages to get in e.g climbing over your walls if you haven't finished your roof, they should be able to steal things from your chests because you haven't protected your home properly.
Author:  [SpA]Howard [ 08 Apr 2012, 14:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
ZEnergy wrote:
[SpA]Howard wrote:

Yeah, still need to do something about general protections in Bedlam, but I gotta be honest: I have no idea what. LWC, even an expensive and limited LWC, will just lead to too many issues in my opinion.

I dunno - anyone else got any suggestions?
My idea is that you should be able to res or protect the walls of your home (and the doors ofc), but if someone manages to get in e.g climbing over your walls if you haven't finished your roof, they should be able to steal things from your chests because you haven't protected your home properly.
Residence will never even be CONSIDERED in Bedlam

Never
Author:  [SpA]ZEnergy [ 09 Apr 2012, 03:23 ]
Post subject:  Factions - A Second Discussion
*Cries in a corner*
Author:  [SpA]Howard [ 12 Apr 2012, 16:23 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
This has dwindled and died. Does everyone (everyone who cares that and actually read the forums that is) now understand how Factions works? If so, can you re-vote if needed? As it stands the votes are overwhelmingly in favour but only about a dozen people have voted.

Does anyone else have any further suggestions? If we were to have set factions that players could join, does anyone feel they are up to the task of running such a thing?

Is anyone out there at all? :? :18
Author:  [SpA]JuncoPartner [ 12 Apr 2012, 16:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
I'm still for it, might get some none bedlam players to pvp in bedlam. I also insist on lwc for chests though, it doesnt matter if there's a load of abandoned chests everywhere, because they'll be in a load of abandoned ugly huts anyway, even that's damn sight better than before there was a bedlam. Actually I don't understand how a faction gains land do they have to manually set it or does it just grow around where the faction was started?
Author:  [SpA]Howard [ 12 Apr 2012, 17:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ-zETv9 ... r_embedded[/youtube]

See if this helps. I'm gonna play around with it on my test server - see what's what
Author:  [SpA]Spikespiegel [ 13 Apr 2012, 14:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
I'm for factions, especially if it's prepare factions.

As for lwc, we could turn on lwc economy so it cost money to lock a chest. That would mean that people would only lock their most treasured items.
Author:  [SpA]Howard [ 13 Apr 2012, 15:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
I think Factions is a go. I've been playing around with it on a Test server and I gotta say, I'm impressed. The only worry I have left with it is permissions. While it has a comprehensive list of nodes that will enable me to configure it so that it only functions as and where needed, our permissions system is far from ideal right now. I may have to wait until help gets back so we can work through the issues together.

As for its implementation, I too think that predefined Factions would be best. The next question is, therefore, how many and who shall run them? Suggestions? (I have my own ideas but I'd rather hear the community's first.)


As to LWC - I am still wildly against it, but if you guys want it, then so be it. I will implement the economy side of it (again - assuming all is well permissions wise) and activate it for Bedlam. I will set the LWC charge to be flatly very high indeed (though you do get a refund if you destroy your protection) as I don't want people locking things the second they step of the boat.
I am saying right here and right now though that this WILL cause problems. You have my word on this.
Author:  [SpA]Howard [ 14 Apr 2012, 13:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
Update: we have an issue.

LWC is not really multi-world capable. It works across multiple worlds but cannot be configured differently per-world. So, if I limit LWC to chest only and set a cost for the protection, that will apply globally, to all maps.

Still want LWC in Bedlam?
Author:  [SpA]JuncoPartner [ 14 Apr 2012, 14:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
I think it still can be done, the locking price wouldn't have to be too much to cost a lot for guests. Then just give registered players extra starting cash, people leave locked abandoned chests in Homestead anyway.
Author:  [SpA]Spikespiegel [ 14 Apr 2012, 15:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
I say no. People can just get an R or up to build them a chest in homestead anyway.
Author:  [SpA]Mr.green [ 14 Apr 2012, 20:23 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
Factions looks like a great plugin, and about lwc, don't think it will work out to good(aka have it turned off for bedlam, at least to begin with).

EDIT: voted yes
Author:  [SpA]JuncoPartner [ 14 Apr 2012, 21:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
I think the big question is would you want to live in bedlam if owning pocessions depended on no one passing by your house and cleaning you out?
Author:  [SpA]Ivanosauros [ 15 Apr 2012, 04:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
there is such a thing as hiding shit - make a little vault out of smooth stone for your valuables far below ground.
Author:  [SpA]JuncoPartner [ 15 Apr 2012, 04:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
Ivanosauros wrote:
there is such a thing as hiding shit - make a little vault out of smooth stone for your valuables far below ground.
Well this is something I personally did, though quite tedious, but the guests never really expect to have their places searched like that, so when they do hide their things it's not very creative, and I would guess most would believe stealing and griefing was against the rules anyway. Other guests though can be rather cunning at actually finding hidden chests, and I can tell you after some crackdowns on the first map back when there was a lot of item duping/hacking, like in Town town I became very efficient in knowing where and how chests were hidden :wink:
Author:  [SpA]Ivanosauros [ 15 Apr 2012, 04:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
Sounds like a challenge to pillage then - itll take more than five minutes to loot an entire faction.
Author:  [SpA]Howard [ 15 Apr 2012, 13:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
Ivanosauros wrote:
Sounds like a challenge to pillage then - itll take more than five minutes to loot an entire faction.

Wait what? Are people STILL not getting this? :shock:

Factions can claim land. In land that factions have claimed, all chests and doors are locked to non-faction members. Factions cannot be griefed unless their land is taken from them in combat.

The conversation about LWC has NOTHING to do with Factions. LWC would be there fore people who are NOT in factions.
Author:  [SpA]Ivanosauros [ 15 Apr 2012, 13:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
[SpA]Howard wrote:
Ivanosauros wrote:
Sounds like a challenge to pillage then - itll take more than five minutes to loot an entire faction.

Wait what? Are people STILL not getting this? :shock:

Factions can claim land. In land that factions have claimed, all chests and doors are locked to non-faction members. Factions cannot be griefed unless their land is taken from them in combat.

The conversation about LWC has NOTHING to do with Factions. LWC would be there fore people who are NOT in factions.
It's not people who aren't getting this, it's me, lol. Perhaps I'm just derpy today.

if we're going to have factions, LWC is completely worthless. Steal from your faction? Get kicked out. if you want to keep your items in bedlam, join a faction. Not exactly a difficult solution.
Author:  [SpA]JuncoPartner [ 15 Apr 2012, 14:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Factions - A Second Discussion
You've convinced me, lets remove lwc from homestead then since there's just no need for it.

I think arguments within factions will break out with people saying waaah he stole from my chest! NO! He stole from from mine! Unless the faction allows you to have private chests. I think lwc is needed to make bedlam an appealing place to live, so many guests just don't understand why they've had their stuff taken, and being stole from isn't fun, can't punish ignorance like that.
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