I am not being condescending and I apologise if I am coming off that way. This is a debate: nothing more.
I am just saying that your entire argument is to say "I LIKE IT" in as many ways as possible while using the words "emotional" and "realistic" as many times as possible but deriding anyone who disagrees with parts of the game. You are not presenting any arguments or reason beyond "you guys just don't get it". Maybe people are not getting it but another way to look at that argument is that you are inventing something that is not actually there, then saying that that is what is awesome about the game. Something that is not part of the mod, was not designed and not even considered by the mod's author, is the best part of the mod? I just do not see that as a good argument. You enjoying it is fine, but sweeping hyperbole that, in essence, says its my fault 'cos I am not making up my half of the game is just more than a little crazy.
Thing is, that is what he considered for the mod, he loved the fact and said in an interview that his mod was making people tell "stories" and 1 kill has more meaning than any FPS action game. That's purely the point I'm trying to get across, how much emotional return you get from the game is indeed different player to player; but at it's core the game isn't about frags etc as you of course know.
And more importantly stop people camping the spawn points as it is crippling the game. But that is something you inexplicably label as "non-realistic" even though this is a game about zombies in which a vial of morphine can magically repair a broken limb.
Well you can't stop people camping on the hills taking out people on the coast, but hopefully lots more spawn points on the coast and in land would hopefully reduce this issue; or perhaps use do what deathmatch games do and spawn people away from threats as much as possible (which mostly works...apart from games like COD lol).
EDIT:
As for the morphine thing, yeah it doesn't make sense, you can't reset bone with painkillers, but that's when you have to push back on ultra realism because as a player in a game you don't want to have to set your bones, cast them, wait for the cast to dry, heal over 2 months etc lol. What's good is that the health system isn't just one pack and a syringe. You could argue that someone giving you a blood transfusion would have to first check your blood type, get the right packet, and avoid giving you an infection whilst giving it to you lol.
I wanted melee, it sucks (and is equally awesome) when you run out of bullets that your only choice is to run (but that's realistic).
No, it isn't. Be it zombies, aliens, Iranians, Martians or the vanguard of hell, people will fight. If running could ever yield a good outcome I might fractionally agree with you but it cannot. Being limited to just guns is idiotic. Have you any idea how good a club the AK47 is? Someone attacks me while I am holding one of them and I canto fire, I'l have their head stoved in before they are within arms reach.
That's pretty out there Howard, you don't see that happen a lot, that's why countries have armies and people trained in conflict resolution. You didn't have the people in Godzilla punching his feet or throwing rocks at the ships in Independence Day. Running is just as good a tactic as anything else; it's about survival. Don't get me wrong, fighting back is cool and I do that myself when the outcome is in my favour, but if the odds are stacked, a tactical retreat is the better solution.
If they do melee, it will have a long swing (not rapid L4D swings) and will come at a cost (like ammo) for food and water, which will go down quickly for balance purposes (which is realistic).
No, it isn't. Swinging a melee weapon for a few short seconds is something a child could do. In fact they do it every time they play tennis or baseball or any one of a thousand other actions. Why is it people like you who have a "sim" fetish think that humans are pathetically weak and will just collapse after a few moments of exercise? You are just being crazy
Wrong. A few short seconds? Okay; well let's hope they don't just keep coming at you then; you will run out of tennis rackets.
I'm pretty thrown back by this argument. How long could a professional baseball player constantly keep swinging a bat, under pressure? I'm not saying one swing means you have to eat a mars bar, but it's a cost to stamina the same as running in the game; it will speed up your water and food requirements. Human's aren't pathetically weak, but they are not super human; I personally couldn't swing a melee weapon with the force to cut through bone and muscle for very long, call me crazy though
If your hud icons are read, melee would be hindered even more. I'm not saying it's not a good idea, and I'd like to see it, but it's not going to help much, it will have the same costs and factors as guns and any physical activity in the game.
But completely agree melee, will be as dangerous (or more so) than guns, as you have to get close (and what does it replace, your primary weapon? your backpack? which ofc offers awesome emotional decisions in game).
Here we go again. This is a perfect example. You have just said that your backpack, a software representation of a cloth bag in which you have cans of food, ammo and medical supplies "offer awesome emotional decisions"? At this point you are either trolling, extremely bad at making a point or don't know the meaning of the word. Do you mean important? Poignant? Vital? Critical? You cannot mean emotional as it makes no sense
Again, condescending. If im getting concerned about what I carry with me, and it's not just borderlands where im just picking up crap all the time, that's an emotional response; i'm not breaking down in tears and yelling at the sky, which is what I assume you think the word purely means. Sure it can be an important to my survival, or my attack or my defence but each one of those decisions carries with it an emotional cost, which is something the developer intended and said in an interview he wanted to happen.
But this game isn't about killing zombies, and other people, it's about survival and making important decisions.
So the zombies are in the game as....catering staff? In flight entertainment? Of course the zombies are central to this, as are the monsters in any game. The fact that you CAN PVP in this game does not nullify or neuter the importance of the role that the zombies play. They are an obstacle to be factored in and dealt with - maybe even used if you are cunning. Dismissing them entirely pushes me back to thinking that this is just deathmatch with consequences to you.
No like I said three times now, zombies are the obstacle, the controllable threat. It's a line they make in TWD graphic novels. I can walk in and out of a town with no problem, because the zombies are just there to stop me from just running around grabbing everything and just being the more equipped player in a really wide open shitty deathmatch. The zombies are a threat, and I know this well. But I'll always be 10 times more afraid when I see a bandit OR a survivor in the same town; because I can't predict them, know their intentions or necessarily deal with them. And like in lots of films you see this, they board up the door, zombies can't get in, but them some biker or some old bint smashes it open to save a dog and gets everyone killed. Zombies are there for balance too, like Juncos example, my badass Bandit shooting at me, has just shot himself in the foot as he has to deal with the horde now. I get the impression you think I actively take a role in PVP, but I don't, those guys are a threat and I'll avoid confrontation at all cost if it hinders my survival prospects.
I will remember every kill and every death, because of the designers decisions in regards to gameplay I become very attached to my one life and that causes the emotional attachments to my actions. I felt terrible when I just murdered someone, and I apologised for it to the guy. I soon forget an awesome COD kill streak, but I'll always remember sniping a bandit in the back after he murdered my friend in cold blood.
But you do not have one life and the designer's decision was "can we have a persistent world with zombies?". You are not just reading more into it than is there, you are now inventing an entire meta-game and claiming that that is what was intended. You say you will remember each death in this game but why? Everyone there knows what the game is. Everyone there is expecting the same as you. They know they could die and that they will then lose their gear. Given that you can simply respawn as often as you choose and that it takes less than 20 minutes to get a full set of gear, how is this such a big thing? Its simply Quake with a very long lobby queue
Well that's where you and me differ. You have one life; sure you respawn (but as a new person) otherwise lol the game would be over in a week till you have the last 2 players on earth trying to find each other in a huge map hehe. You can argue I'm reading into it, but it's an entertainment product, if I just wanted to shoot people with no meaning I'd play your average FPS. But this isn't just running around a corner then boom, 1 kill, this is more like pissing yourself round a corner whilst 4 bandits armed to the teeth stroll by and you are trying not to panic or make a sound. If you have ever played Penumbra or Amnesia and felt scared or terrified, this is the same deal for me; it's not open world cod with zombies in my eyes, nor the developers. That's fine though, everyone plays differently, and everyone has different emotional reactions to things, I laughed at the end of Titanic whereas other people cried for example, but we are not C3PO; and the best part of the game for me is how it makes me feel, and how running in the woods for an hour holding W is still got me sat on the edge of my seat. It's personal enjoyment and I guess my point was it's a shame you are missing a real trick there in what they are accomplishing.
I have a few problems with some of the realism, like having to find special clips for silenced weapons, just seems a bit too much for me personally among a few other annoying issues.
So one of the few correct things in the game related to weapons and you object to it?
How is that correct? Both guns are the same model, just one has a suppressor on it, both mags go into the same slot. Mechanically it's realistic for both clips to work. So yeah, I object to it on those grounds...
Realism should not get to the point of boredom and frustration, and that's the subtle balance that the designer has to monitor carefully. I like the fact that all the guns are different, some houses have empty cans and some places are full of guns, or nothing; and one med pack does not cure all. But yeah, realism is hard to balance, because if you push it to far, a fun sim becomes a chore; which this hasn't for me yet.
But like Chaos say's in his help guide, you have to roleplay a little bit and use your imagination to fully appreciate this game, and I know alot of gamer's can't do this, and that's perfectly fine but they won't appreciate what this game is trying to accomplish; which is why they would prefer l4d, but perhaps a bigger map.
Let us know when you have played it, because if you start telling people stories, then the game has got you. That's the best thing about this game (dev's own words) is the stories, killing one guy in any other game isn't an interesting story, but when you tell the tale of your friends trip and the horrors and scares you encountered is brilliant and an awesome bi-product of this mod.
I really just hope Rocket doesn't let the majority public fuck up his game and change it into something else.
No one is asking for the core game-play to be changed, least of all me. The issue is you people, the "die hard fans" (even though this game is a month old...lol). You are so zealously obsessed with screaming "NO NO NO NO" to any proposed change you are missing the point. The game is, at a mechanical level, shoddy in the extreme. What we are asking is for things to be fixed so that, over all, the experience is smoother and, at least at the start, more uniform. I don't want scoreboards adding or PVP removing or food made more plentiful or for zombies to be easier - we just want things to make sense and be consistent. Just because you are able to suspend your disbelief so easily, it does not mean that everyone else is.
I'm not anti bug fixing lol, the server client thing is a mess and needs to be looked at, most of my issues with the game are either known bugs with dropping items etc, client side lag, and the horrible UI. There is a scoreboard btw ^^ But all those issues are just the bi-product of this mod actually being able to work and it's a capacity build at best at the moment. I know you are not saying this, but my point purely is, I don't want to see the game consolfied, or have rubber arm bands put on it, or become something that makes people feel like super human video game characters. The engine is a tone of crap don't get me wrong; but like I said to you he works there, it's what he had and knew, and that's cool; I doubt this mod would be out atm if he tried it on any other engine; and if it was im sure the scale would be less grand and it wouldn't be the same experience. I HOPE! someone approaches him with some fucking wiz coding team and a sexy engine and he gets to move away from BE and do his own thing.
Howard, zombies should and never will be the main threat, they are a just an obstacle. Human's competing over resources and self-preservation at whatever cost is the real threat in a narrative and that should never change. The Walking Dead graphic novels are a great example of this, the zombies get a bit on the front cover, and then the inside is 50 pages of dialogue and actions between characters. But that's really just subjective, I find the premise of a zombie to be very terrifying indeed. This isn't a zombie killing game, and if you treat it like that, then of course you are going to die a lot. I know where the zombies are and how to deal with them, but a human player is unpredictable, and dangerous if they need to be. But equally you need them too, so finding someone to trust has to happen too for blood transfusions etc.
The narrative of the game is based around the players - no one has argued otherwise. To fight, or flee, to cooperate or betray - these are the most powerful parts of the game (as in they are the most affecting). The zombies however are the major part of the backdrop and are thus the main protagonist of the game. They are the ever present threat, the obstacle to all your endeavours and likely the cause of most of your deaths. This is why they need to be boosted and fixed and made to function properly.
I agree they need to be sorted out, the zombie function atm isn't a great solution for the feature but it's what will work atm. I hope they sort it out though, as the zombies atm aren't as dynamic as we would all like. But the new types are pretty cool, especially when you stop to take a break, look thru your binos then suddenly hear that fucking crawler you left at the barn is still coming for you lol. Don't misunderstand me thou, the zombies will always be a threat, but my point was, they are the controllable threat, whereas a human player isn't.
As to why he used the ARMA engine: 'cos its his job? He works for BI and was asked to test out some capabilities of the engine. That is how this mod was born, not from some great desire to make something but because it suited a testing need. There are many, many other engines that not only could have been used for this game but would have done it far better. The only reason, aside from those just stated, that this mod ended up here was the map. Creating a huge map in which to play this type of game is the main drawback. ARMA already had that task complete, allowing him to go ahead with his plans. All he had to do was recode the patrolling soldiers as zombies and add the hunger and thirst elements. Everything else was already there.
Again, not saying we should not be grateful to him for what he did but you are inventing a mythology around him, stating that he has a vision and that he had a plan when no such thing existed. I am very glad he made it and I would gladly by him a pint but instead of kissing his arse, I would use that pint to explain the stuff he's gotten wrong.
FWIW and to try and balance this out a little and give you a fuller picture, I still play the game and plan to continue to do so but it is running out of steam for me. Because there is so little control, because the engine and interface is so tragically broken and because the game is ultimately purposeless, I am becoming bored. Admittedly this IS one of the occasions when we can say "its just an alpha" as this will likely change and we will have more to do. Again, I say he needs to look to STALKER for his inspiration as this mod essentially is MP STALKER minus the radiation - and this is something I have wanted for a very long time.
I want to have high hopes but having heard so many voices like yours, all screaming "don't change it, you'll make is boring" when all we are asking is for it to be fixed is disheartening.
Not really sure why you are giving me the history lesson lol? I've said previously I've spoke to him on email about it a few weeks ago and referencing his written ethos. I also think you are over thinking my admiration, I will
always applaud a designer for making the game's they want to play; he was testing the engine sure, but he was also making the game he wanted to play as a result. I wouldn't suggest to him to look at any other games imo, just hopes he makes it the way he wants too like my favourite dev's like rocksteady and valve do. They make games for themselves, not the people.
The "screaming" isn't about fear of change, it's fear that someone's going to rip out the core of what makes this game awesome for me, and that can soo easily happen the minute you open up and bend over to every demand. Don't get me wrong, I've got a fuck tonne of ideas for this game; but it all builds upon; challenge, fear, loss and survival of the fittest. His upcoming ideas sound great, if they can fix the server bugs, weird client issues, and annoying inventory problems that would be awesome.
And just to clarify, zombies really don't exist, therefore the reality in this game is based on other people's presumptions on what could happen.
Well these things normally start because of some secret government chemical leak or a meteorite so you never know
You will eat those words on UD Day. ^^
As a choice I wouldn't pick up a heavy two-handed axe, I would pick up something more manageable for my build, like a big freaking torch to whack them in the face with if they got too close! Using an axe as an example is a bit silly really as there are plenty of objects around me as I sit at my computer that I could easily throw at a zombie, I definitely won't be using my vinyl collection that's for sure
So melee should be a part of the game. Oh and btw, it's easy enough to sharpen your blade, all you need is a stone and some water
Another attack that should be implemented is if the zombies get too close you should be able to push them away, surely that would be the first thing you would do? Not just stand there and let them eat you. I mean, you can't even throw the empty gun at them in the hope to stun them a little so you can make your get away.
If you have watched your zombie films you will also notice that they use melee weapons, they are able to push the zombies away and able to throw something at them. Which is what I would expect to do if this was real life
Sure, but you would need to put a stone sharpener or a location in the game in the case, and that's cool. Now you have to go find a sharpener or location nearby to replenish your melee weapon. Sort of like how Dead Island did it, but at more of a cost.
The use melee weapon's in films ofc, I never disputed that. But it's not going to be easy was my point. And these aren't classic romero zombies, these are infected "zeds". Throwing your weapon might knock out one but in the sim it's not going to be a long term solution lol. When I think about myself trying to fight something like that in real life, it frightens me, how many could I hold off? How long till my arms get tired? Or I drop the weapon? What do I do about the zombie behind me. It's factors like that I hope he considered if he implements it. Best case is too run, and hopefully they will give the zombies some stamina limitations too; depends on how the Zed's anatomy works.
I know a couple of friends who have got big group settlements now, it's interesting to see what players are doing in this open world.