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Stacking/Random Team
https://forum.specialattack.net/viewtopic.php?t=2219		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Republic [ 01 Apr 2008, 17:10 ]
Post subject:  Stacking/Random Team
Noticed recently a lot of stacking on the servers :x

I think it's possible to force a random choice for the team selection, it's not perfect but would cut it down a lot.

Whadda ya think?
Author:  [SpA]SaintK [ 01 Apr 2008, 17:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
Hiya,

I've added a 'todo' to my list this morning to come up with a solution for this problem. Suggestions are welcome!

I don't like the idea of forcing to choose auto, as sometimes you want to play together with a friend or something. Perhaps after 3 wins by 1 team the teams should be auto mixed together?
Author:  DoC [ 01 Apr 2008, 17:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
Yeah, I prefer to play with friends because I know how they play and I can change my way of playing to fit with theirs. When playing with strangers its sooo difficult...
Author:  Teddynator [ 01 Apr 2008, 18:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
Well this is rly a big problem on the SPA-servers. It's not like I'd not ejoy it, but everytime, when the "general" and known players play on a server, they are almost always in 1 team. Thats usually the winning team :D(especially when I am there :twisted:).
It's like Doc said:
the players that know each other, want to play in 1 team, because they know how the others play and knowing the play-style of your gaming-mates, gives u a bigger chance to win the game.
Ok, the servers are public servers and they are usually about fun and stuff, but imo the SPA-servers give the whole public shit a new touch(some organization, within the regular players) 8) . It is so much more enjoyable to play with a known and friendly community, like this.
I.e. I spend the time I'm playing tf2 up to 90%-100% on SPA-servers. the other 10% are spend on some fun servers and when SPA will get it's fun-server it will be like 200% tf2 on spa :D. And the reason I enjoy the spa-servers so much are the players(not servers, which are very good as well). The players make SPA unique, compared to other servers.
Thats why I don't want to have a force-autobalance-shit on these servers. <-It could make the spa servers go empty :cry: .

My solution for this problem would be to make a list of the usual players and only divide them, so that every team has the same amount of regular players. Since there are a lot of ppl on the servers (and the forum) I would suggest to make a topic and those, who think that they play often enough shall write a post there. To check if he is rly often on the servers, check his stats(it's written how long a player spend playing on the servers, isn't it?).

zet's it, schweinehunde!
Author:  [SpA]SaintK [ 01 Apr 2008, 18:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
Sounds like an intresting idea.

Keep it comming people :)
Author:  Akar [ 01 Apr 2008, 18:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
The easiest solution would be to make a agreement and let people use common sense.

It shouldn't be hard for people to balance the teams by themselves if they try.

And this way it's possible to bend the rules a bit if you absolutely want to play with your friend.
Author:  [SpA]demm [ 01 Apr 2008, 20:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
we could enforce a rule that the regular (=validated) players have to be split evenly in both team. (no need for any forum thread teddy, this would all be automated)
but honestly, I don't like the idea. I have to admit that I am one of the guys that 'stack', simply because I want to be in the same team as my other uglies (no other heavy is as turstworthy as MRuler :-11 )

we could have a new SpA-Points command, that lets you start a vote to randomize the team. if ~40% agree with you, the teams will get all mixed up.
Author:  Jay [ 01 Apr 2008, 20:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
yes, i see this all the time...


sometimes im guilty of it, but most of the time i choose first :D


My reason is because i have a better game with all you lot (you know who) I never get pissed off with any noobs, or anyone being shit :mrgreen:

But i understand what you're saying and i agree.. common sense would be our best bet. i often change sides if the teams are mis matched and i know magisk does the same (almost too much :P )

it's a hard one tho, cos i like playing with friends, and our commmunity always play together.... Perhaps now we've all seen this we should look at the teams and if they are stacked then do some kind of swapping/mixing thing ourselves.


i wont be playing as much for the next two weeks tho, my gf is staying with me and doesnt like all the clicking late at night :(


I dont know much, but like mapvote, is there a way of doing mix teams vote. that would be cool... so we see the teams are stacked, all do a mix teams vote and bosh, sorted :18

EDIT - I just read demms message and he put it better - mix teams vote 40 % thing :D
Author:  Teddynator [ 01 Apr 2008, 21:23 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
[SpA]demm wrote:
we could enforce a rule that the regular (=validated) players have to be split evenly in both team. (no need for any forum thread teddy, this would all be automated)
but honestly, I don't like the idea. I have to admit that I am one of the guys that 'stack', simply because I want to be in the same team as my other uglies (no other heavy is as turstworthy as MRuler :-11 )

we could have a new SpA-Points command, that lets you start a vote to randomize the team. if ~40% agree with you, the teams will get all mixed up.
sounds good, that my idea would work.

An other idea would be to autobalance all players, and those who can use the spa points, can switch the teams once for 1 Spa point. 1 Is by far enough.(not everyone can play 24/7 and/or get best of the team and stuff). or just mix my both ideas, then we have the super sayajin idea.

mixing the teams up, after 40% voted, sounds not that good imo. Just think of this situation:
you play with MRuler and then you are on the other team and you have to fight against him...or at least get killed by him. Would you like that?
Author:  Akar [ 01 Apr 2008, 21:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
Image

All you need.
Author:  Teddynator [ 01 Apr 2008, 21:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
A big pasta-ball? looks delicious
Author:  [SpA]Spikespiegel [ 02 Apr 2008, 08:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
Teddynator wrote:
A big pasta-ball? looks delicious
No, it's a walnut!
Author:  [SpA]futari [ 02 Apr 2008, 13:06 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
I agree that stacking isn't all that good, but I enjoy playing with all the regulars instead of people I do not know :/
A spa vote command sounds nice, I agree that sometimes it's good to mix it up

Last night I was in server #1, and it emptied out because on the new map.. everybody wanted to be with certain players.. x[
Author:  [SpA]SaintK [ 02 Apr 2008, 13:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
I don't like voting myself, i think its highly annoying if servers have votes running.

More of an idea (to me) would be perhaps to mix up the teams after every win. This would be possible on maps with 5 CP's.

On map such as dustbowl, you should have max 3 wins before a mix up because then you can complete all 3 stages with your team.

At maps suchs as gravelpit you might want to mix up teams after 2 wins (one attack, one defend).

Sounds like an idea?
Author:  DoC [ 02 Apr 2008, 14:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
Yeah. And a good one :)
Author:  Republic [ 02 Apr 2008, 15:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
[SpA]SaintK wrote:
I don't like voting myself, i think its highly annoying if servers have votes running.

More of an idea (to me) would be perhaps to mix up the teams after every win. This would be possible on maps with 5 CP's.

On map such as dustbowl, you should have max 3 wins before a mix up because then you can complete all 3 stages with your team.

At maps suchs as gravelpit you might want to mix up teams after 2 wins (one attack, one defend).

Sounds like an idea?
Yeah this I like, can get tedious if your on the "wrong" team just getting plastered round after round.

Common sense would work, if we had any :lol:

Could we just have a mapvote available on 2Frot :wink:
Author:  Crovax20 [ 04 Apr 2008, 09:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
Hmm, if the regulars just pay attention to the teams the problem shouldn't be there in the first place. I've found myself a lot on the team without regulars, and sometimes we got steamrolled, but sometimes we put up a very good fight and even win.

I think its just a case of some good people switching teams if you win games within a couple of minutes. If 1 team wins 3 times in a row, within 5-10 minutes, I'd say the teams are unbalanced and need switching up.

But yes, there is a tendency amongst regulars to play with the people they know they can trust. This is why I love xbox live cod4, I just jump into a party with my friends, and it hooks up against a different team after each match! You are still stacking, I suppose but since you are up against a new team everytime it isn't as bad for the "recieving end of the stick".
Author:  Greasy_greabo [ 04 Apr 2008, 14:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
On most fps games theres usally stacking, its a sad but true fact - Only way seen to "counter" it in cs was PTB... but if I ever saw it was running i would leave server because its SO annoying.

Best bet is to have a map mix up like Saint said to jumble the teams abit after a few wins etc,

But imo people should just play with common sense, choose a team they wanna play and if its stacked against you solo them!!! :D Server balancing makes freedom to choose leave in a game and can restrict the fun...
Author:  Crovax20 [ 15 Apr 2008, 20:23 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
Image

Seriously...

I count 10 regulars on one team, and two on the other team..
Author:  Beserker [ 16 Apr 2008, 00:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
Gotta admit i'm guilty of this.

As Jay said, it's just a better time playing with the community, people actually use microphones, talk about tactics etc.
While on the other team it's just a bunch of clueless idiots running around not charging up ubers to use and just charging into sentries like a headless chicken. :?

I don't agree on the whole idea of jumbling teams after 3 wins, some people will get to stay and those 3 wins could win the game altogether, while the people who were moved helped get those 3 wins and lost because of it.
Author:  Magisk [ 16 Apr 2008, 22:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
Just a thought that might be completely stupid and wrong and lame: how about letting us powertripping admins have access to the switch-command to maybe transfer 2 or 3 regulars to the other team when stacking is as obvious as in the example Crovax posted a few posts above here ^? Only to be used with utmost responsibility ofc.

***Edit:added bold text for emphasis***
Author:  [SpA]futari [ 16 Apr 2008, 22:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
Auto Team Balance hates me enough as it is, I don't really need a bunch of admins switching me around :roll: ;p
Author:  Magisk [ 16 Apr 2008, 22:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
Autoswitch might hate you, futari, but the admins still <3's you :wink:
Author:  namelessone [ 17 Apr 2008, 13:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
Ok, my go at the solution:

When to activate:
a) use saints rules to activate the mixing on round end
b) admin command or vote

Who to mix up:
The factors should be if the players stacks regularly and he if is a top scoring player of his team.
Never mix up all of the players, but lets say 65% of the teams.
Almost never move those that have selected random team - those should not be punished!

Keep a history of team choices for each player (red, blue, and if possible random).
If a player has more than 20% difference in red/blue (or low random % if possible) selection we assume he is a stacker.

First see the player's team choices for the last week/month/total and move the serial stackers first. The regular stackers should be the first to be moved and might even be moved in the middle of the round if the admin command is executed (if not only team medic, medic with uber >5% (if possible), or engie with sentry built (if possible). The medic can be moved later on death as well as engie on sentry destroyed but this only complicates things :P)...

If the teams are still stacked (or eg. if we have not shuffled 65% of the teams or some criteria based on total team points difference is not satisfied) then check the current game and move those that haven't selected random at the beginning (if possible). Note, that if we have shuffled 65% of the teams and you have stacked only this time you can continue playing with your favorite medic (this time ;)).

How to do it from a technical perspective:
Well, stats do it already - the example of the serial stacker and he should always be the first to be mixed :mrgreen:. This for example is obviously not a stacker so he should not be moved and should be allowed to chose his team once in a while.
What we need is a the above for the last X days or/and current game but it should be possible for your tech team to collect that data...

:18
Author:  [SpA]SaintK [ 17 Apr 2008, 13:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
It's a shame HLstatsX doesn't display the amounts of wins/losses, as i am quite sure i have more team losses then wins!

I just seem to join blu alot by default 8)
Author:  Jay [ 17 Apr 2008, 14:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
I know i know :18


maybe we should all just choose random like JAY

if we're all honest we'll have a good game.... come on regulars, relax, you got a 50 50 chance you'll be on my team :P
Author:  [SpA]moPP [ 17 Apr 2008, 14:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
Quote:
If a player has more than 20% difference in red/blue (or low random % if possible) selection we assume he is a stacker.
It can't be based on that % at all.
Does every team stacker join a specific color every time? :p It's all a conspiracy!

And I wouldn't call it team stacking per se, it's more.. play with people you can rely on, and who you know the play style of?
At least I don't join teams just to steamroll the non-regulars.
Author:  DoC [ 17 Apr 2008, 14:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
[SpA]SaintK wrote:
I just seem to join blu alot by default 8)
I do it, too. But seems that everyone else joins red and it gets like 'me & sum random even-more-noobish-than-me-shitty-players vs all regulars' :(
Author:  namelessone [ 17 Apr 2008, 14:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
Jay wrote:
if we're all honest we'll have a good game.... come on regulars, relax, you got a 50 50 chance you'll be on my team :P
I would never choose your team. I need my 1st place spapoints and that means not playing in your team :mrgreen:
[SpA]SaintK wrote:
I just seem to join blu alot by default 8)
Excuses :mrgreen: :18
moPP wrote:
Quote:
If a player has more than 20% difference in red/blue (or low random % if possible) selection we assume he is a stacker.
It can't be based on that % at all.
Does every team stacker join a specific color every time? :p It's all a conspiracy!
True, it could be based on random selection then (if possible). If not you can assume a player is a stacker if he joins a team that already has more players than the other team since random would put him in the other team (this wont catch all of the stackers...).


Ok, a new proposal - it is impossible to choose a team except random (some servers force it) unless you buy a "Team choice permit" with your spa points. This way it will cost you to stack. The donators have a loads of points and are spared, regulars should have enough points to play with their friends once in a while and the world is perfect again :)
Author:  Teddynator [ 17 Apr 2008, 15:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stacking/Random Team
kinda offtopic but jay: I got my A, in that english test :). I <3 mate!
btt:
I would be still for my solution, but anyway :p
:4
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