well, we had a testrun on dustbowl with 13 engi's, i can tell you, you get owned from all sides
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| Author: | [SpA]moPP [ 22 Apr 2008, 10:59 ] |
| Post subject: | Class limit |
What's your point of view on this? I don't like limiting things myself, but I wouldn't mind some sort of class limit if it helps balancing maps (dustbowl comes to mind). 50% engineers, 50% demo is just.. wrong :p, especially since the slot limit is increased beyond the original. |
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| Author: | [SpA]SaintK [ 22 Apr 2008, 11:04 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
Personally I don't like class limits. |
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| Author: | [SpA]demm [ 22 Apr 2008, 11:13 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
me neither. 25% hw + 25% demo + 50% medic >> 50% demo + 50% engi it's all about adapting your strategies. |
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| Author: | [SpA]moPP [ 22 Apr 2008, 11:29 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
Yeah, but! Sometimes it's just not possible due to the amount of engineers and grenade spam. You've all been there :o |
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| Author: | [SpA]SaintK [ 22 Apr 2008, 11:40 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
well, we had a testrun on dustbowl with 13 engi's, i can tell you, you get owned from all sides
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| Author: | [SpA]demm [ 22 Apr 2008, 11:44 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
[SpA]demm wrote: 25% hw + 25% demo + 50% medic >> 50% demo + 50% engi
>> means 'far greater than'this would mean that every member of the left team could have über. a hw with an über should be able to take out at least 2 demos. a demo with an über should be able to take out at least 2 sentries. so all the left team has to do is save some übers and they will pwn team right. |
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| Author: | [SpA]Spikespiegel [ 22 Apr 2008, 12:04 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
[SpA]SaintK wrote: well, we had a testrun on dustbowl with 13 engi's, i can tell you, you get owned from all sides True dat, but I've never laughed so hard before, playing TF2 
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| Author: | DoC [ 22 Apr 2008, 17:38 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
Jay can tell ya how easy it is to lose when there are loads of engies in your team  As for the grenade spam - like teddy says - its for da nubz 
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| Author: | Jay [ 22 Apr 2008, 19:34 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
DoC wrote: Jay can tell ya how easy it is to lose when there are loads of engies in your team
yea! i changed sides to help out, then they all turned engis!!1 hahhahaa, it was instant turtle power.... we had no attack and engis even built on the 1st point by spawn, when we (me + doc) were attacking middle! As for the grenade spam - like teddy says - its for da nubz after one uber and a spy dressed as a ford focus we were all dead. i sucked today.... i have my excuses, all of which are valid and reasonable toodles oh, as for class limits, im on the fence 
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| Author: | Crovax20 [ 22 Apr 2008, 22:32 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
[SpA]SaintK wrote: well, we had a testrun on dustbowl with 13 engi's, i can tell you, you get owned from all sides
and?This still makes his point valid. After all I've seen plenty of teams where certain classes make sure you will never win. 2fort with 4+ snipers and 4+ engineers.. good luck trying to get the enemy intel, because you only have 6 players left on your team who might have picked a usefull class. And since you are dead without a medic, you might as well say you only have 4 offensive classes. The problem is not that many of the same classes is overpowering, the problem is that many of the same classes ruin the map for people who want to play a competitive game. The amount of times you need a strong offensive, but seemingly have 4 spies, 3 snipers, 2 engies, 4 medics, 1 scout, and 1 heavy and demo aren't helping. 4+ spies, engies or snipers are common sight for me. Dustbowl seems to be the main map where this imbalance in classes gets created, followed shortly by 2fort. In my humble opinion a good balanced team would exist out of Max 2 spies Max 2 snipers Max 3 medics Max 3 heavies Max 3 pyro's Max 4 soldiers Max 3 scouts Max 3 engies (perhaps 4, if you actually have engies with a clue) Max 4 demoman Perhaps make a max limit for each class of 3? Or 4 for pyro/soldier/demoman? It wouldn't be too limiting and in my opinion would help in terms of gameplay. |
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| Author: | Teddynator [ 22 Apr 2008, 23:35 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
no no no...no class limit...it's part of the game to make an own tactic..and other than that, how would that be if you join a game and you must play a class that you don't want to...I don't think that this will raise your fun-factor at all...one of the main reasons I play on spa-servers is that the classes in the team are often very well chosen(at least when you play with regulars). And I rly can't see a reason why there should be a class limit...it's just decreasing the pool of tactics... |
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| Author: | DoC [ 23 Apr 2008, 00:29 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
Imagine that sum nub takes the class you're best with (eg demo) and you have to play with the class you're worst with (eg scout) and that becomes the reason why your team loses. That's wrong. Not to mention that in some cases some classes are strongly recommended not to be used. |
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| Author: | [SpA]moPP [ 23 Apr 2008, 12:07 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
What I've seen been done on some other servers is to limit the annoying classes, like sniper, engineers and demo. Somewhere along 3/3/4 I think. The rest of the classes weren't restricted. This was a 32 player server. The thing is that when the slot limit is higher, the balancing just becomes wrong at some maps. Sure, you can come in with two ubers, kill 2-4 sentries, then you die. And by the time you respawn and get back the sentries are up and going on lvl3. This == stalemate/win for defenders. One place this is very noticeable is last stage of Dustbowl. You can have 20 minutes with this stuff going on due to the amount of engineers without getting anywhere. |
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| Author: | [SpA]SaintK [ 23 Apr 2008, 12:12 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
moPP wrote: What I've seen been done on some other servers is to limit the annoying classes, like sniper, engineers and demo.
Somewhere along 3/3/4 I think. The rest of the classes weren't restricted. This was a 32 player server. The thing is that when the slot limit is higher, the balancing just becomes wrong at some maps. Sure, you can come in with two ubers, kill 2-4 sentries, then you die. And by the time you respawn and get back the sentries are up and going on lvl3. This == stalemate/win for defenders. One place this is very noticeable is last stage of Dustbowl. You can have 20 minutes with this stuff going on due to the amount of engineers without getting anywhere. I think this is really were teamplay comes looking around the corner tbh. VALVe designed TF2 to be a teamplay game, but they set it up the way that if everyone would play for themselfs alone disregarding teamplay, the game still can get won. I think in this cases the lack of teamplay is the issue, you'll still have this after restricting classes. |
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| Author: | [SpA]moPP [ 23 Apr 2008, 14:08 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
But they also designed the game with 12v12 in mind, not 15v15. Dustbowl, last stage, 5-6 engineers, 4-5 demos, and a mix of medic/sniper/soldier/heavy. Your teamplay have to be godly to get through that, and even then it's nearly impossible to do. The downside about limits is just that, it's a limit. There could be someone who's really not good at the class restricting you from playing it. |
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| Author: | Pip [ 23 Apr 2008, 15:14 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
Concerning the classlimit suggestion... hmmm.. seems a bit fascist. But still, Ive allways enjoyed playing on servers with the limitation. Having a bigger veriaty of classes sure makes the game more dynamic. Nothing i hate more then seeing 4 snipers on one side of 2Fort just jerking of some frags. If ppl have a problem adapting their class to the team then they dont have much to do on the [SpA] servers, or in this game as far as im concerned. But then again, I dont wanna sound to harsch. Kicking ppl for classtacking might not be fair, but a litle warning seems allright to me. "Sorry, this class is full at the moment" *Edit* Oh and also, wouldnt wanna c the classlimit as a way to limit the other teams possibilities to defend their point. I just c it as a way for your own team not to completaly suck. In my humble oppinion, I would be saticfied with a limitation on snipers and spies. Hate when one has to whine in the chat: "Eeh guys, we dont need 4 snipers on offence" |
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| Author: | [SpA]SaintK [ 23 Apr 2008, 15:27 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
I completely understand your point, and there is also something to say for it. BUT (there is always a but ^-^) For example, on 2fort, when their 4 snipers out, just become demo, you walk up to them, fire some pipebombs up, and you finish them off. Do this a couple of times behind each other, and the sniper will get tierd from it, and change class. (Alway's seems to work with me). The bottom line here is, what i try to say, is that imo there is always a counter tatic availible to annoy people so much, that they will change class to do something about it. |
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| Author: | Crovax20 [ 24 Apr 2008, 11:44 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
[SpA]SaintK wrote: I completely understand your point, and there is also something to say for it. BUT (there is always a but ^-^)
provided you don't get sniped before you get there, or get backstabbed, or get blown up by a rocket, or grenades or something else. Its not only snipers that are on the ramparts other classes drop of them 99% of the time. The point still stands, that while the other team can counter it, the people in your own team CAN'TFor example, on 2fort, when their 4 snipers out, just become demo, you walk up to them, fire some pipebombs up, and you finish them off. Do this a couple of times behind each other, and the sniper will get tierd from it, and change class. (Alway's seems to work with me). The bottom line here is, what i try to say, is that imo there is always a counter tatic availible to annoy people so much, that they will change class to do something about it. Its not about having a team of all snipers thats unbeatable, its about a team of all snipers that makes sure you loose the game because you are effectively being handicapped. Stop seeing it as something thats overpowered, start seeing it as something thats frustrating for the people who actually want a good game. I would love to see a max 2-3 sniper and spy limit. And a max of 4 engies. If only because we have a custom amount of people on the server, and as someone pointed out before, this leads to some awkward situations that are either incredibly hard for the opposing team or for the team itself. Simply said, its not overpowered, it is underpowering your team and you loose because of these idiots that only care about frags and not about actually trying to play together and win the game. I think we have all seen plenty of the following situations Dustbowl offense with over 40% of your team existing out of snipers, spies and engies. 2FORT with over 40% of your team existing out of snipers, and engies etc. |
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| Author: | Teddynator [ 24 Apr 2008, 15:59 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
tho I am against class limits, I'd say sniper and spy limits are welcome...seriously..who needs more than 2-3 snipers/spies... |
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| Author: | [SpA]SaintK [ 24 Apr 2008, 16:12 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
Teddynator wrote: tho I am against class limits, I'd say sniper and spy limits are welcome...seriously..who needs more than 2-3 snipers/spies...
Spy's can win a round tbh |
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| Author: | Teddynator [ 24 Apr 2008, 16:19 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
you can't win a round with more than 2-3 spies, unless your enemies are total noobs! |
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| Author: | Pip [ 01 May 2008, 14:38 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
I think the classlimit disguission has taken a new turn with the latest patch. As I said before I am for classlimits, but it hasnt really been that big of an issue on [SpA]servers till now. I guess a limit of four medics should make the game alitle more fun again. Fascism for fun! 
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| Author: | [SpA]SaintK [ 01 May 2008, 14:45 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
Ok, so here's the deal. If you really want classlimits, i need a propper detailed way on how to do this. I need a per map, per class, per team classification on the classlimiting. Once you've worked this out, it can be posted and discussed here. If we then think it would be an improvement over the current situation then we might implement it. I don't want to simply set a fixed class limit for all maps, as each map imo requires differant amounts from certain classes. |
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| Author: | [SpA]Spikespiegel [ 01 May 2008, 14:48 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
Just set Medic limit to 3 per team, regardless of map, and leave it on for a week or two, and everything should be good
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| Author: | [SpA]demm [ 01 May 2008, 16:19 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
[SpA]Spikespiegel wrote: Just set Medic limit to 3 per team, regardless of map, and leave it on for a week or two, and everything should be good
this is a big NO! imagine there are 3 nub medics that just want the achievements and then some of or regulars can't go medic! this would really piss me off! |
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| Author: | Teddynator [ 01 May 2008, 17:29 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
[SpA]demm wrote: [SpA]Spikespiegel wrote: Just set Medic limit to 3 per team, regardless of map, and leave it on for a week or two, and everything should be good
this is a big NO! imagine there are 3 nub medics that just want the achievements and then some of or regulars can't go medic! this would really piss me off! |
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| Author: | DoC [ 01 May 2008, 17:41 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
[SpA]demm wrote: [SpA]Spikespiegel wrote: Just set Medic limit to 3 per team, regardless of map, and leave it on for a week or two, and everything should be good
this is a big NO! imagine there are 3 nub medics that just want the achievements and then some of or regulars can't go medic! this would really piss me off!  Okay... uglys, too 
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| Author: | Crovax20 [ 01 May 2008, 17:50 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
[SpA]SaintK wrote: Ok, so here's the deal.
Since this will be open for discussion I have deliberatly kept the max numbers tight!If you really want classlimits, i need a propper detailed way on how to do this. I need a per map, per class, per team classification on the classlimiting. Once you've worked this out, it can be posted and discussed here. If we then think it would be an improvement over the current situation then we might implement it. I don't want to simply set a fixed class limit for all maps, as each map imo requires differant amounts from certain classes. 2fort/Granary/Well/Badlands Limits: 2 snipers per team max 2 spies per team max 4 medics per team max 5 soldier/heavy/pyro/demoman per team max 4 scout per team max 3 engies per team max Dustbowl Limits attacking team: 2 snipers max 3 spies max 5 medics max 3 engineers max all other classes have no limit Limits defending team: 3 spies max 3 snipers max 5 medics max 4 engineer max All other classes have no limit. Goldrush Limits attacking team: 3 engi max 2 spy max 2 sniper max 5 medic max All other classes have no limit Limits defending team 5 engies max 5 medic max 2 spy max 2 sniper max All other classes have no limit Hydro Both teams: 2 snipers max per team 2 spies max per team 4 engi max per team 4 medics max per team every other class has no limit Remember this is just a suggestion, and its open for discussion. If you feel like this list would be incorrect please state so. And please use arguments, when you do state so. Btw, Saintk, would it be possible for people to buy an exemption from being restricted to class choice with a couple of spa-points? So if some guy really badly wants to play sniper on a map he can pay 10 points and be unrestricted for 10 minutes or that map? |
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| Author: | [SpA]moPP [ 01 May 2008, 18:10 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
[SpA]Crovax20 wrote: Btw, Saintk, would it be possible for people to buy an exemption from being restricted to class choice with a couple of spa-points? So if some guy really badly wants to play sniper on a map he can pay 10 points and be unrestricted for 10 minutes or that map?
This right here is a good idea, if class limits are introduced. However, should rather be per map than buying minutes.SpA points can be used for so much :o |
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| Author: | [SpA]Noxious [ 01 May 2008, 18:43 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Class limit |
5 medics are way too many. At dustbowl 5 ubers can destroy any defense. 3 are fine as many as engis. I'm for class limits. But I think we should discuss it after the "medic frenzy" passes out a bit. |
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