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Stats changes
https://forum.specialattack.net/viewtopic.php?t=3270		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  [SpA]SaintK [ 28 Jul 2008, 12:59 ]
Post subject:  Stats changes
We're currently proccessing the following changes to the stats systems availible for our TF2 servers;

- Migrate all SpA systems (spapoints, motd, live servers etc) to the new Psychostats
- Removed old Psychostats version (whiped stats)
- Made the new version availible. Most important feature; Live stats, no more one per half hour updates.
- Remove HLstatsX once systems are moved over
Author:  [SpA]futari [ 28 Jul 2008, 13:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
I was wondering why the hlstats were looking funny, but this explains it~
Hope it goes well, last time the stats were switched I lost half my kills and none of my deaths o:
Author:  [SpA]SaintK [ 28 Jul 2008, 13:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
All stats are whiped, we're starting with a clean stats list.
Author:  [SpA]futari [ 28 Jul 2008, 13:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
*waves his 18k kills goodbye* ...but finally a wipe! o:
Author:  kaikai! [ 10 Aug 2008, 22:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
Just wondering if healing as medic is included in the calculation of skill? I can't find any data on it, and I feel that my skill falls quite a bit everytime I play Medic. Might also be that I suck at playing medic, but just wondering :)
Author:  [SpA]Nutty82uk [ 11 Aug 2008, 10:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
kaikai! wrote:
Just wondering if healing as medic is included in the calculation of skill? I can't find any data on it, and I feel that my skill falls quite a bit everytime I play Medic. Might also be that I suck at playing medic, but just wondering :)
Medics do seem to get shafted (I play them alot) but then again I don't give 2 tosses about the stats, aslong as I do well for the team, and the team thinks Im doing well for them thats all the counts...do yourself a favour, forget about the stats 8)
Author:  [SpA]demm [ 11 Aug 2008, 10:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
kaikai! wrote:
Just wondering if healing as medic is included in the calculation of skill?
No, it is not. But the developers of psychostats are currently working on this feature. The tracking has already been implemented, only the skill calculations are missing.
Author:  Crovax20 [ 11 Aug 2008, 12:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
Can someone explain to me how this thing calculates skill?

My k/d ratio improved, my caps improved everything basically improved yet I dropped in skill. Hell I was even using a pyro, not easy (s)kill classes like the demoman and soldier.
Author:  [SpA]Blackhawk [ 11 Aug 2008, 13:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
[SpA]Crovax20 wrote:
Can someone explain to me how this thing calculates skill?

My k/d ratio improved, my caps improved everything basically improved yet I dropped in skill. Hell I was even using a pyro, not easy (s)kill classes like the demoman and soldier.
PS is based on an Elo-system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system). So the basic development of your skill should depend on the skill of the players you play against. At least this is the idea of Elo (coming from chess). However PS states that they made some "improvements" to it and I think this handles all the stuff which exceeds pure killing.

So back to the basic killing. If you kill ppl with a skill lower than yours you won't get that much points compared to... umm... someone like me (skill 476.41) killing you (skill 929.19). However if you kill a lot of low-skillers this should be equal to killing some high-skillers.

Nevertheless this comparision leaves all the stuff (caps, intel, dominations, whatever) which makes TF2 TF2 out and PS doesn't state how this is taken into the skill computation... I'll try to check the scripts if I can find something on this. :)
Author:  Crovax20 [ 11 Aug 2008, 15:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
same flaw as in HLstats in that case.

That had the exact same problem, where people had 3:1 or higher kill death ratio's and still dropped in skill. The idea is nice but its really flawed since there is no fixed list of players playing ont he server. There are always new people or people who simply don't play much, who are still good. Thus you get killed by someone who normally plays with 4kings in clanmatches join our server for a laugh and lowering the skill of everyone rapidly since he is like god.
Author:  [SpA]Blackhawk [ 11 Aug 2008, 18:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
[SpA]Crovax20 wrote:
same flaw as in HLstats in that case.
This depends on your point of view as you have to start somewhere if you wanna generate a number like "skill".

I've checked the scripts now and PS offers two kinds of skill-computation. One old Elo-based and a newer which is the default since PS3.1:

If you're as a killer better than your victim you'll get this as a bonus (**2 means powered by 2):
Code:
$kbonus = ($kskill + $vskill)**2 / $kskill**2;
So taking me as a victim you'll get:
Code:
$kbonus = (929 + 476)**2 /  929**2
$kbonus = 2.29
At the same time the victim will loose some points:
Code:
$vbonus = $kbonus * $vskill / ($vskill + $kskill);
So:
Code:
$vbonus = 2.29 * 476 / (476 + $929);
$vbonus = 0.775
So if you shoot me once your skill is increased by 2.29 and mine dropped by 0.775.

The other way round the code is different:
Code:
$kbonus = ($vskill + $kskill)**2 / $vskill**2 * $vskill / $kskill;
$vbonus = $kbonus * ($vskill + $self->{baseskill}) / ($vskill + $kskill);
So this will result into:
Code:
$kbonus = (476 + 929)**2 / 476**2 * 476 / 929;
$kbonus = 4.464
$vbonus = 4.464 * (476 + 50) / (476 + 929);
$vbonus = 1.671
So here my skill will be increased by 4.464 and yours decreased by 1.671.

These values however will be get modified (multiplied) with a weapon's weight if this option is activated(?) and have a total cap of 10.

If you now check your play sessions you'll see that the last sessions from the 7th and 9th have a K:D < 1. So you got killed more than you killed which has resulted in the overall decrease of your total skill. All the sessions with a K:D > 1 resulted in a steady skill increase. So I think that the stats are running fine.

The big problem is that the stats are only pure kill-stats (assists are counted too). So all stuff like capping do not count. I haven't dug any deeper in this, but you can define you own stats-computation for a kill-event and the assist-event. Perhaps it's possible to add other events there to.
Author:  [SpA]demm [ 11 Aug 2008, 20:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
[SpA]Blackhawk wrote:
So all stuff like capping do not count. I haven't dug any deeper in this, but you can define you own stats-computation for a kill-event and the assist-event. Perhaps it's possible to add other events there to.
That's not true. Currently PS has configured the following point bonuses:
Code:
captureblocked 2
chargedeployed 5
flag_captured 5 
flag_defended 5
pointcaptured 1 (personal) + 5 (whole team)
kill_assist 1
Author:  [SpA]Blackhawk [ 11 Aug 2008, 22:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
[SpA]demm wrote:
That's not true. Currently PS has configured the following point bonuses:
Code:
captureblocked 1
chargedeployed 5
flag_captured 5 
flag_defended 5
pointcaptured 1 (personal) + 5 (whole team)
Ah... thanks for the headsup. As I've written... I haven't looked any deeper and the code is quite hard to read. So is this easily configurable? So can you add points for any logged event?
Author:  Noodle! [ 12 Aug 2008, 01:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
I have to admit I absolutely hate the way this works. It only cares about kills, and as a medic player it DOES hurt the ego, haha. I mean, I try not to care but when everything seems to come down to K:D ratio (especially since it's so on display) it's pretty grinding. Yes I know you can hide it, I just think it's so incredibly flawed.

I could understand it in quake or even cs, but for tf2 it removes so much of the TEAM thing (the way it's displayed).

/me tries to ignore stats, but it's hard.
Author:  [SpA]demm [ 12 Aug 2008, 08:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
[SpA]Blackhawk wrote:
So is this easily configurable? So can you add points for any logged event?
Yes it is.
Attachment:
psychostats.png
psychostats.png [ 27.57 KiB | Viewed 3325 times ]
Any game event that is logged can be added like this.
For stuff that is not logged (e.g. the Medic's healing) we have to install a SourceMod plugin which creates the log entries in the correct format. Then Psychostats will be able to process them.
Author:  Noodle! [ 12 Aug 2008, 10:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
why are not kill assists logged?
Author:  [SpA]Blackhawk [ 12 Aug 2008, 11:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
[SpA]demm wrote:
[SpA]Blackhawk wrote:
So is this easily configurable? So can you add points for any logged event?
Yes it is.
Attachment:
psychostats.png
Any game event that is logged can be added like this.
For stuff that is not logged (e.g. the Medic's healing) we have to install a SourceMod plugin which creates the log entries in the correct format. Then Psychostats will be able to process them.
Ah... nice. And I've thought that healing would be a problem with the out-of-the-box setup. Would be really nice if you can fix this with a plugin. Not that most medics will care about the stats, but they should get something for their ePenis, too. ;)

Are there any thoughts about further configuration of the bonus points? And is it possible to see the bonus points config from the user's backend?
Noodle! wrote:
why are not kill assists logged?
Eh... they are?
Author:  Noodle! [ 12 Aug 2008, 13:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
I'm blind! I can't find them. I guess this is another embarassing revelation of my retardation.
Author:  DrMcMoist [ 12 Aug 2008, 14:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
Noodle! wrote:
I have to admit I absolutely hate the way this works. It only cares about kills, and as a medic player it DOES hurt the ego, haha. I mean, I try not to care but when everything seems to come down to K:D ratio (especially since it's so on display) it's pretty grinding. Yes I know you can hide it, I just think it's so incredibly flawed.

I could understand it in quake or even cs, but for tf2 it removes so much of the TEAM thing (the way it's displayed).

/me tries to ignore stats, but it's hard.
Yeah I sometimes feel like this too. It's a real pain in the ass when you come off the back of a great run as a Medic and your stats read like you just got your ass whooped all over the shop.
Author:  [SpA]futari [ 12 Aug 2008, 16:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
/me plays medic~ 0_0
Author:  [SpA]demm [ 12 Aug 2008, 16:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
[SpA]futari wrote:
/me plays medic~ 0_0
that's why you're only ranked 10 :P
Author:  [SpA]Nutty82uk [ 12 Aug 2008, 16:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
[SpA]futari wrote:
/me plays medic~ 0_0
Kills 1900 deaths 980 is not bad going for a medic :mrgreen:
Author:  [SpA]SaintK [ 12 Aug 2008, 16:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
The HLstatsX daemon has been turned off. HLstatsX is no longer collecting stats data.
Author:  Noodle! [ 12 Aug 2008, 16:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
[SpA]futari wrote:
/me plays medic~ 0_0
but you're a demon with your most played class, soldier, and a demon with pyro and sniper as well. Don't compare to us mere mortals!
Author:  [SpA]futari [ 12 Aug 2008, 16:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
Noodle! wrote:
[SpA]futari wrote:
/me plays medic~ 0_0
but you're a demon with your most played class, soldier, and a demon with pyro and sniper as well. Don't compare to us mere mortals!
yeah, I play soldier more because I play it in matches, but my second class is definitely medic~ I'm an average sniper/pyro though o:
Author:  Lim-Dul [ 14 Aug 2008, 16:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
By the way - if assists, captures etc. are assigned a fixed bonus in Psychostats then I have some proposals as to their values.

It'd be a sensible thing to calculate them as:

Caps: Twice the points you'd get for killing a player with the same rating as you (since you get 2 points in-game)
Assists: Half the points you'd get for killing a player with the same rating as you (since you get 0.5 points in-game)
...
etc.

If this ELO calculator is to be trusted these values would have to be 32 and 8 respectively since you get +16 points for killing a similarly skilled player...

http://www.namibianchessfederation.com/ ... ulator.php
Author:  [SpA]Blackhawk [ 18 Aug 2008, 12:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
[SpA]Lim-Dul wrote:
If this ELO calculator is to be trusted these values would have to be 32 and 8 respectively since you get +16 points for killing a similarly skilled player...
Last time I checked there was a max=10 limit there. ;)
Author:  [SpA]moPP [ 25 Aug 2008, 09:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
[SpA]Crovax20 wrote:
same flaw as in HLstats in that case.

That had the exact same problem, where people had 3:1 or higher kill death ratio's and still dropped in skill. The idea is nice but its really flawed since there is no fixed list of players playing ont he server. There are always new people or people who simply don't play much, who are still good. Thus you get killed by someone who normally plays with 4kings in clanmatches join our server for a laugh and lowering the skill of everyone rapidly since he is like god.
It's kinda silly having the same system hlstats had, as it only makes it more and more meh to gain any points.
Last night I had 443 kills 114 deaths = 3.88 k/d ratio. By looking at that number I should gain "skill", right?

.. I ended up losing 150 points instead.

Dunno, it makes it kind of pointless having stats only to get it messed up due the point difference when a new player kills someone who've played alot on the server.
It just doesn't make sense calculating it like that.

The only "fair" thing, imo, is to have a 1:1 ratio, which means everyone is worth the same amount of points. Kill one, get one point. Die, lose one point.
Then again, TF2 is more than k/d, there gotta be rewards for capping, healing etc. Could reward people who cap one point, and let the defending team lose one point or something similar, and reward 1 point every time a medic heals as much as the average health is.

1:1 ratio would probably make the whole point system suffer from inflation though, and we get the same problem hlstats had regarding only gaining points and not losing enough, so we end up having 30k points again.


Hnnnghhh, I'm ranting!
Author:  [SpA]Blackhawk [ 25 Aug 2008, 13:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
moPP see my post above where I told Crovax how it works. As it's based on the Elo-idea you can loose skill and mapping it to a game like TF2 isn't that easy.

I admit that the 150p drop is quite big, but I dunno the exact numbers. Normally the loss of points being killed by a low-skilled player should be lower than the gain for killing him. So this is really a little bit strange, but seeing your session time it simply could be that you played during the daily cronjob and this messed sth. up. In addition the history view shows only 2 hours online time instead of the 4h from the session. Hmm... as I don't have any admin access to PS I cannot check it... I even dunno if this is checkable. :)
Author:  [SpA]moPP [ 25 Aug 2008, 20:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Stats changes
I just find it silly that I lose points with an almost 4:1 ratio just because the ELO system or whatever increase/decrease points based on the difference in skill.
That can't work when there's new people every day who manage to get a random kill every now and then.

I just think it's a pretty flawed system, it would work in a controlled environment where there's only regulars, but.. yeah.
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