SpecialAttack.net :: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?

Given 2 equally skilled opponents, its nearly impossible to recap the 3rd point after its lost at the beginning.

The defending team puts up 4 sentries as well which makes it almost impossible to cap the last point.

To cap the 5th point, you have to roll in with like 3-5 charged high-dmg classes (pyro/soldier/demomen/heavy).

The defending team puts up 4 sentries as well which makes it almost impossible to cap the last point.

To recap the 4th point, about 2 spies have to mess up the enemies teleporter entrances, another 2 spies must sap the enemies sentries and the rest must roll out with charged high-dmg classes and HAS to kill ALL enemies simultaneously. Even if that succeeds, the enemies are back on the 4th point in a few seconds (fast respawn) and you have to defend the last point again.

The map neither is unique nor fun. All you can do is either wait for the stalemate or let the enemiy cap the last point 3 times to force a mapchange.

Given 2 equally skilled opponents[...]

Fastlane and Dustbowl are the best capture point maps in TF2. And your arguments are not true at all.

Quote:

Given 2 equally skilled opponents, its nearly impossible to recap the 3rd point after its lost at the beginning.

It's possible, I've done it many times on SpA servers with teams in which I was, and teams had nearly equally skilled players.

Quote:

The defending team puts up 4 sentries as well which makes it almost impossible to cap the last point.

Two ubercharges are enough to destroy all sentries on last point, because in most cases, they are all near themselves. Some sentries are able to destroy without ubercharge, with soldier's rockets.

Quote:

To cap the 5th point, you have to roll in with like 3-5 charged high-dmg classes (pyro/soldier/demomen/heavy).

This is on every capture point map.

Quote:

The defending team puts up 4 sentries as well which makes it almost impossible to cap the last point.

This is on every capture point map, especially on Dustbowl.

Quote:

Nope. Recaps of 4th point are very often when there are skilled players in team.

Quote:

The map neither is unique nor fun. All you can do is either wait for the stalemate or let the enemiy cap the last point 3 times to force a mapchange.

I have to disagree. Fastlane IMHO gives much more fun than maps like ctf_2fort or ctf/cp_well and isn't as boring as Badlands (this map is pretty boring when there is a fight for 4th and 3rd point).

[SpA]Relentless wrote:

Given 2 equally skilled opponents[...]

Given two equally skilled opponents every good and fair designed map would be a draw.

essentially, what you're saying is that it's hard to retake the middle point?

of course it is. that's the whole point of maps that follow the pattern of 5 consecutive cp's. that's you never, ever give up the middle point if you can help it, or fight tooth and nail to get it back when you do lose it, or at least set up a good defence toward the front of your next point from which you can launch an attack.

if you see this as a problem, which it might be percieved as if one team does outclass the other team to the point that they've set up camp more or less right outside their spawn (but that would be game over regardless of circumstances), then fair enough; but it's a problem that every map like this suffers from, not just fastlane. if anything, fastlane suffers less

tl;dr: fastlane is fine. unless you think that all 5 consecutive cp maps are crappy. in which case, it isn't, and you probably feel the same way about roughly a quarter of all maps in the game

cp_prolane please O;
but yeah.. I hope the spawntime fix the creator of fastlane made will be put in the game soon >_>

it's a nice and fun map, it just has major flaws like the 23.000+ medpacks around 2nd/4th point and spawntimes

Ok... so we make a castle 24/7 server... yay!

We just need the option when buying a map with spa points to skip the next map instead of postponing it.

Horrible idea. It basically means that if you've spent your precious spapoints to change the map to your liking, some other fucknut that doesn't like it, is going to change it straight away.

[SpA]Noxious wrote:

We just need the option when buying a map with spa points to skip the next map instead of postponing it.

Horrible idea. It basically means that if you've spent your precious spapoints to change the map to your liking, some other fucknut that doesn't like it, is going to change it straight away.

Author:	[SpA]Relentless [ 25 Jan 2009, 13:25 ]
Post subject:	Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
Reasons: Given 2 equally skilled opponents, its nearly impossible to recap the 3rd point after its lost at the beginning. After capping the 4th point, normally each team now has 3-4 engineers. That means the team with 4 points now has 3-4 teleporters. These are upgradeable to lvl 3. Since our servers have faster respawn, you instantly respawn as the attacking team (cause youre holding 4 points) and can teleport to the 4 point again. Even if a group of your team dies, you are on the frontline again in no time. The defending team puts up 4 sentries as well which makes it almost impossible to cap the last point. To cap the 5th point, you have to roll in with like 3-5 charged high-dmg classes (pyro/soldier/demomen/heavy). To recap the 4th point, about 2 spies have to mess up the enemies teleporter entrances, another 2 spies must sap the enemies sentries and the rest must roll out with charged high-dmg classes and HAS to kill ALL enemies simultaneously. Even if that succeeds, the enemies are back on the 4th point in a few seconds (fast respawn) and you have to defend the last point again. Or short: The map neither is unique nor fun. All you can do is either wait for the stalemate or let the enemiy cap the last point 3 times to force a mapchange.

Author:	Marmot [ 25 Jan 2009, 13:46 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
Fastlane and Dustbowl are the best capture point maps in TF2. And your arguments are not true at all. Quote: Given 2 equally skilled opponents, its nearly impossible to recap the 3rd point after its lost at the beginning. It's possible, I've done it many times on SpA servers with teams in which I was, and teams had nearly equally skilled players. Quote: The defending team puts up 4 sentries as well which makes it almost impossible to cap the last point. Two ubercharges are enough to destroy all sentries on last point, because in most cases, they are all near themselves. Some sentries are able to destroy without ubercharge, with soldier's rockets. Quote: To cap the 5th point, you have to roll in with like 3-5 charged high-dmg classes (pyro/soldier/demomen/heavy). This is on every capture point map. Quote: The defending team puts up 4 sentries as well which makes it almost impossible to cap the last point. This is on every capture point map, especially on Dustbowl. Quote: To recap the 4th point, about 2 spies have to mess up the enemies teleporter entrances, another 2 spies must sap the enemies sentries and the rest must roll out with charged high-dmg classes and HAS to kill ALL enemies simultaneously. Even if that succeeds, the enemies are back on the 4th point in a few seconds (fast respawn) and you have to defend the last point again. Nope. Recaps of 4th point are very often when there are skilled players in team. Quote: The map neither is unique nor fun. All you can do is either wait for the stalemate or let the enemiy cap the last point 3 times to force a mapchange. I have to disagree. Fastlane IMHO gives much more fun than maps like ctf_2fort or ctf/cp_well and isn't as boring as Badlands (this map is pretty boring when there is a fight for 4th and 3rd point).

Author:	sebas [ 25 Jan 2009, 14:04 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
The respawn times for the team with 4cp are silly and I agree with everything Relentless said...except for the banning part and that's only because it's my favourite scout map (along with Badlands, obviously).

Author:	[SpA]Voegelchen [ 25 Jan 2009, 14:30 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
[SpA]Relentless wrote: Given 2 equally skilled opponents[...] Given two equally skilled opponents every good and fair designed map would be a draw.

Author:	[SpA]Scatterbrain [ 25 Jan 2009, 15:19 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
essentially, what you're saying is that it's hard to retake the middle point? of course it is. that's the whole point of maps that follow the pattern of 5 consecutive cp's. that's you never, ever give up the middle point if you can help it, or fight tooth and nail to get it back when you do lose it, or at least set up a good defence toward the front of your next point from which you can launch an attack. if you see this as a problem, which it might be percieved as if one team does outclass the other team to the point that they've set up camp more or less right outside their spawn (but that would be game over regardless of circumstances), then fair enough; but it's a problem that every map like this suffers from, not just fastlane. if anything, fastlane suffers less tl;dr: fastlane is fine. unless you think that all 5 consecutive cp maps are crappy. in which case, it isn't, and you probably feel the same way about roughly a quarter of all maps in the game

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Author:	sebas [ 25 Jan 2009, 15:29 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
Fastlane does have a respawn time problem. Which is why it's hardly ever played in 6vs6, because the team on the last point will never be able to push back since the opposition will spawn almost instantly and close enough to be back into the fight in a matter of seconds, before you even get to cap back that 4th point. This problem is non-existant in badlands or pro_granary for example. topic on etf2l for further reference: http://etf2l.org/forum/general/topic-1552/?recent=18659

Author:	Amyl [ 25 Jan 2009, 15:32 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
Each map has pro's and con's mostly based on personal preferences. But fastlane is a map that is loved by many players and bought quite often. Therefore I would not vote on deleting it from the mapcycle. Specially for it has been so long since new maps came out; its good to have variation and choise. Reducing the amount of maps only leads to other maps getting boring for they are played more often. xxx

Author:	[SpA]Blackhawk [ 25 Jan 2009, 16:45 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
I don't like fastlane cause I get killed on it at the most... but it's quite fine if I don't take this into account. ^^ So... just delete ctf_2fort...

Author:	Lim-Dul [ 25 Jan 2009, 17:02 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
Ha, ha - yeah, what Amyl said - most maps are good or bad depending on your preferences - only 2fort is objectively bad out of the bunch. ;-)

Author:	sebas [ 25 Jan 2009, 17:07 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
Not if you like sniping.

Author:	Lim-Dul [ 25 Jan 2009, 17:33 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
Nah, then it's also bad because there are better sniping maps out there and on 2fort you mostly engage in pointless sniper vs sniper duels.

Author:	[SpA]Minimoose! [ 25 Jan 2009, 17:42 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
2fort sucks for snipers, you can't do any sneaky kills and the snipers never move. For example on badlands you actually have to attack or defend as a sniper (rather than just kill other snipers all the time), you can take sneaky positions on most of the cp's (positioning is actually varied, which makes for better gameplay) and my main point is that badlands is an awesome map and 2fort sucks

Author:	[SpA]Relentless [ 25 Jan 2009, 19:07 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
Marmot wrote: Fastlane and Dustbowl are the best capture point maps in TF2. And your arguments are not true at all. Quote: Given 2 equally skilled opponents, its nearly impossible to recap the 3rd point after its lost at the beginning. It's possible, I've done it many times on SpA servers with teams in which I was, and teams had nearly equally skilled players. Quote: The defending team puts up 4 sentries as well which makes it almost impossible to cap the last point. Two ubercharges are enough to destroy all sentries on last point, because in most cases, they are all near themselves. Some sentries are able to destroy without ubercharge, with soldier's rockets. Quote: To cap the 5th point, you have to roll in with like 3-5 charged high-dmg classes (pyro/soldier/demomen/heavy). This is on every capture point map. Quote: The defending team puts up 4 sentries as well which makes it almost impossible to cap the last point. This is on every capture point map, especially on Dustbowl. Quote: To recap the 4th point, about 2 spies have to mess up the enemies teleporter entrances, another 2 spies must sap the enemies sentries and the rest must roll out with charged high-dmg classes and HAS to kill ALL enemies simultaneously. Even if that succeeds, the enemies are back on the 4th point in a few seconds (fast respawn) and you have to defend the last point again. Nope. Recaps of 4th point are very often when there are skilled players in team. Quote: The map neither is unique nor fun. All you can do is either wait for the stalemate or let the enemiy cap the last point 3 times to force a mapchange. I have to disagree. Fastlane IMHO gives much more fun than maps like ctf_2fort or ctf/cp_well and isn't as boring as Badlands (this map is pretty boring when there is a fight for 4th and 3rd point). 1) Granary and Badlands are the best maps 2)I didnt say its absolutely impossible to recap the 3rd point, but its unlikely harder compared to badlands/granary/well. 3)Maybe 2 uc's are enough to destroy all the sentries, but people can just stand inside the spawn and wait for the uc to end. If tehy get hit while standing in the dorrs, they just run to the supply locker and back to the doors in not even 1 second. Also, the in-the-spawn-camping medics can save their uc's since they cant be attacked. Eg on Granary, you cant stand inside the spawn and wait for the enemy to end his uc because it takes longer to get out than to cap the point. So it pointless to attack (on fastlane). 4)From what I've seen, it never took more than 2 uc to cap the last point on badlands/granary (unless the defending team has at least 1 uc as well). 5)Ofc on Dustbowl 3-4 sentries are normal, because Dustbowl ONLY consists of either attacking OR defending (unlike on progressive cp-maps, where you have to attack AND defend). So many sentries on dustbowl make an exciting and interesing match, while on 5cp-maps they just slow down the game and wont make your team win the game (no matter if youre the one holding 4 or 1 point) 6)It's unlikely to have skilled players in the team if you get pushed back to the last point in 2 minutes. 7)And why do you start argueing with ctf-maps now? Yeah, I have to agree, fastlane still is better than 2fort and ctf_well but cp_well is surely more fun since its better balanced. About Badlands being boring, thats your opinion, but if a map has balancing and spawntime problems, it comes to facts and not just opinions. [SpA]VÃ¶gelchen wrote: [SpA]Relentless wrote: Given 2 equally skilled opponents[...] Given two equally skilled opponents every good and fair designed map would be a draw. I never saw a match between 2 equally skilled opponents on badlands/granary that ended in a draw, because they are well designed, fastlane is just a bit too stalematey. ETMI wrote: essentially, what you're saying is that it's hard to retake the middle point? of course it is. that's the whole point of maps that follow the pattern of 5 consecutive cp's. that's you never, ever give up the middle point if you can help it, or fight tooth and nail to get it back when you do lose it, or at least set up a good defence toward the front of your next point from which you can launch an attack. if you see this as a problem, which it might be percieved as if one team does outclass the other team to the point that they've set up camp more or less right outside their spawn (but that would be game over regardless of circumstances), then fair enough; but it's a problem that every map like this suffers from, not just fastlane. if anything, fastlane suffers less tl;dr: fastlane is fine. unless you think that all 5 consecutive cp maps are crappy. in which case, it isn't, and you probably feel the same way about roughly a quarter of all maps in the game Its not hard to retake the middle point, its almost impossible compared to other 5cp-maps. And I really, REALLY know well how a 5cp-map can and should be played, you can believe me that.

Author:	Suiclider [ 25 Jan 2009, 19:23 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
How about banning some maps that actually suck instead? 2fort, dustbowl and turbine for instance. eeeeeeeeew maps. The solution is to lower the number if engies allowed on each team, it boggles my mind that this haven't been done yet.

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Author:	Bartg [ 25 Jan 2009, 19:50 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
Yeah max 2 engis on 2fort, 3 engis on dustbowl and 3 on goldrush ~~ And for fastlane its badly designed, last cp is just in front of spawn, so you can basically stand in spawn room heal yourself all the time from locker and defend cp, and also middle cp is like 5 seconds from spawn, so unless there is 10+ spawn time the map plays like you all say. It would be way better, if first spawn was done more granary style, where you need to walk through another gate to enter cp area, which itself is more surrounded, as Fastlane 4th and 5th cp isnt covered at all. And spawn which you use when you have control of 3 CP's should be here , as it would made the yourney to the middle more or less equal with those on granary or well.

Author:	[SpA]Voegelchen [ 25 Jan 2009, 20:10 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
May I sum up your requests guise? Player A dislikes map x, Player B dislikes map y, player C dislikes map z. So lets "ban" every map! Or we could try it the other way round: Lets ban every player and the maps life happily ever after.

Author:	Bartg [ 25 Jan 2009, 20:17 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
Lest ban players from maps they dont like

Author:	[SpA]Blackhawk [ 25 Jan 2009, 21:48 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
Ok... so we make a castle 24/7 server... yay!

Author:	[SpA]Relentless [ 25 Jan 2009, 22:25 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
Gawd I hate you guys Ill just switch server in future kkthxbai? :X

Author:	[SpA]futari [ 25 Jan 2009, 22:27 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
cp_prolane please O; but yeah.. I hope the spawntime fix the creator of fastlane made will be put in the game soon >_> it's a nice and fun map, it just has major flaws like the 23.000+ medpacks around 2nd/4th point and spawntimes

Author:	[SpA]Minimoose! [ 25 Jan 2009, 23:23 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
[SpA]futari wrote: cp_prolane please O; but yeah.. I hope the spawntime fix the creator of fastlane made will be put in the game soon >_> it's a nice and fun map, it just has major flaws like the 23.000+ medpacks around 2nd/4th point and spawntimes Yeah you have to wade through them there are so many Means scouts are freaking invincible

Author:	sebas [ 25 Jan 2009, 23:26 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
I did mention it's my favourite scout map. ^.^

Author:	needy [ 26 Jan 2009, 00:40 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
[SpA]futari wrote: cp_prolane please O; but yeah.. I hope the spawntime fix the creator of fastlane made will be put in the game soon >_> it's a nice and fun map, it just has major flaws like the 23.000+ medpacks around 2nd/4th point and spawntimes Fixed version of fastlane will be included in next tf2 update. At least the original creator said so

Author:	Bartg [ 26 Jan 2009, 00:56 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
Is goldrush broken on spa or sth ? I just played round, where every 10 spawns where 22 seconds, that means i spend 220 seconds waiting for spawn just in 1 stage

Author:	Mint [ 26 Jan 2009, 08:34 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
[SpA]Blackhawk wrote: Ok... so we make a castle 24/7 server... yay! I loweeee you...

Author:	[SpA]Noxious [ 26 Jan 2009, 13:55 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
We just need the option when buying a map with spa points to skip the next map instead of postponing it.

Author:	Suiclider [ 27 Jan 2009, 03:15 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
[SpA]Noxious wrote: We just need the option when buying a map with spa points to skip the next map instead of postponing it. Horrible idea. It basically means that if you've spent your precious spapoints to change the map to your liking, some other fucknut that doesn't like it, is going to change it straight away.

Author:	[SpA]Voegelchen [ 27 Jan 2009, 03:22 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
Suiclider wrote: Horrible idea. It basically means that if you've spent your precious spapoints to change the map to your liking, some other fucknut that doesn't like it, is going to change it straight away. Oh mister you got my nervous noxios wrong! Actually buying maps works this way: Before buying: Actual map: Birdlane Nextmap: Bird rush After buying: Actual map: Birdlane Nextmap: Gravelbird Nextmap after the next map: Bird rush But the noxious wants: Actual map: Birdlane Nextmap: Gravelbird Nextmap after the next map: Everything but Bird rush! You see? Its as easy as A-B-Bird!

Author:	[SpA]Minimoose! [ 27 Jan 2009, 10:09 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
Suiclider wrote: [SpA]Noxious wrote: We just need the option when buying a map with spa points to skip the next map instead of postponing it. Horrible idea. It basically means that if you've spent your precious spapoints to change the map to your liking, some other fucknut that doesn't like it, is going to change it straight away. In simpler terms than birds, no one currently can put their own map before yours if you bought it with spapoints, so nox's idea would work and mean people would have to use spapoints to get crappy maps if they really want them

Author:	Suiclider [ 27 Jan 2009, 12:43 ]
Post subject:	Re: Can we please ban cp_fastlane from the mapcycle?
I got it now. Furthermore: u guys r called me stupid sadface