Alright I have had it. I have been playing some more spy recently after seeing the recent interview by Valve. During my playtime as spy I have indeed noticed that the spy has become a mostly useless class. In effect, like the valve interview stated, as time has gone by players have started to become used to spies, disguises and suspicious of anyone who is not shooting. The role of the spy has been reduced to a one trick pony, a class that actually hampers its own performance by being the class he is. During my play I have identified, in my opinion, some key flaws with the way the spy currently works. These flaws on a case by case basis might be seen as something that doesn't sound too bad or unbalanced but when you put them all together the problems become bigger thant the sum of the parts. Alright so what are the problems the spy faces?

Problem A: The spy, enemy of its own
The spy degrades its own performance by being a spy. At the start of the match people in general aren't as alert to possible spies. This quickly changes after a few kills from the spy and people know there is a mofo out there who they can easily kill if they just go around and shoot anything on their own team that doesn't seem to be able to shoot back. People become aware that there is a spy in the game and they will change the way they play. They will turn around more often and will shoot people on the own team more often

Problem B: Spy Check
Random Spy checking is too effective. You can easily just shoot a few rounds at someone to see if its a spy or not. With the spy's health being anywhere between 75% and 100% people become suspicious of anyone who is not below that treshold or at 100%. The spy's health with 125 hp is very weak against random spy checking, because it takes only 2-3 seconds for most classes to gib the spy.

Problem C: The disguise paradox
Disguise, is one of the main features of the class. You disguise as someone on the enemy team and run around while everyone believes you are on their team. Well like I already stated in the above boxes... not... The disguise have lost its use, the only viable disguises seem to be the demoman and pyro because they are expected to be at the front line and are decent speed, so you can avoid bumping into people. Of course the problem quickly arises that people know these two classes are the most used disguises and will spycheck them even more often. So you say, well disguise as something different, yet the other disguises while they may have more credibility than the others just aren't fast enough or believable. A sniper that is at the front and never zooms in and doesn't change gun. A medic with a needlegun out, an engi running around without building or shooting anything, a heavy.... well lol. It seems only the soldier might have some use, since his speed allows him to sort of try and avoid bumping and nobody really expects him to be a spy.

Problem D: Collision detection
Its shit, I think everyone here can concur that its utter garbage when you run around a corner stealthed and happen to bump into someone who is also coming around the corner. There goes your whole infiltration and you better retreat as fast as possible. Also related to the disguises, people will actively try and notice that you are a spy by running into you. Your cover as spy is immediately blown the moment someone pushes into you and notices he can't move through you.

Problem E: Splash damage
Hurray for explosives, they will not only quickly dispatch the spy but he will also have to cross a field that is full of grenades, rockets and random pyro fire. Get hit by any of these splash damage weapons in cloak and you are pretty much fucked. The grenades and rockets will juggle you and take of big chunks of the small hp pool, the random fire will make you light up as a christmas tree and serve you on a silver platter to the enemy team.

Problem F: Backstab animation
The backstab animation, makes many spies miss their stabs. If someone is not standing still or moving in a straight line continuesly it will be a big source of frustration for you. Try stabbing a medic that is darting all over the place. Chances are he will notice you before you manage to even have a try at stabbing him, and then you can serve as some free ubercharge bonus for his ubersaw. The backstab animation has stolen many a kill from spies, just because the person unknowing of the spy behind him moves sideways and fucks it all up. For best result try moving diagonally so you can also immediately start shooting any spy who tries to stab you. The backstab animation just plainly sucks and makes the hard work of infiltrating past the spam, then managing to stay unnoticed while you uncloak and come up from behind really worthless. On a related note is the awkward hit detection on backstabs, plenty of times I stabbed people in the back just to hear the sound and nothing happens. Other times you are in front of people and get a backstab, valve really needs to try harder and solve this problem

Problem G?
Sappers, who on earth thought it would be a good idea to give engineers the time to casually shoot and kill the spy and then have enough time to turn around and remove sappers would be balanced? Seriously a lone engineer should choose to either try and safe his gear untill the rest of the team arrives or shoot the spy and loose at least 2/3th of his stuff. Smart engineers these days don't sit behind their sentry the whole day, thust the stab sap tactic just doesn't work anymore.

So while these problems case by case aren't really too bad for the spy, combined they make playing spy a game of frustration. Yes you will manage to score kills as a spy, yes you might even get top of the scoreboard (against uncompetent players), but in effect you are mostly useless. Just think of it this way, does the sniper have to bail for safety after making a kill? Or does he have to watch a lengthy bullet animation that might just make him miss? No the sniper can stand in the back, gaurded by sentries and go pew pew. Of course the spy's job is dangerous, but I think the combined problems above just make it useless. You could benefit your team far better by playing any other class, the scout can do lots of damage and actually dodge incoming fire and quickly retreat if it becomes to dangerous. The sniper stays in the rear and makes headshot after headshot. The engineer provides his team with support and area denial. The Soldier and demoman have raw damage output and survivability.. the list goes on.

I don't buy the argument that the spy is a class that doesn't rely on how many he kills but who he kills. Because simply put a soldier will kill more and won't miss his goddamned backstab on medics 20000 times, while the soldier pretty much can kill a medic simply. So question remains what would Valve have to do to make the spy class an entertaining class again that can actually rack in some nice amount of kills?

Well my first suggestions towards solving the shit that is called spy at the moment is remove the backstab animation. There is no reason as to why this should be in there. 20% of the time it doesn't do it and it instakill for anyone who stands in front of you, the other 80% of the time you better hope you won't miss or else you will most likely be toast. A spy has to be pretty skillfull already to just manage to get behind the enemy line and survive, so he doesn't need to be a psychich who can tell every sudden move of the person he is stabbing. The second thing I would like to see is the spy's health improved to 150 hp. This will make him more durable and increase his chances of actually getting out after stabbing some people, which right now is pretty much undoable. The third change I propose is actually allowing the spy to shoot paperplanes/props. This would be an upgrade for the sapper or something where the spy can shoot and it will show up as bullets/rockets/grenades for the enemy team but for the friendly team it would just be little papergrenades/rocketplanes etc. This way you can actually shoot your own team and not be insta uncovered like right now where you just can't shoot. I think these 3 changes would be really beneficial to the spy and really make the class a lot better.

I love the spy, but I find that I am of more use to the team as any other class that can perform the tasks of a spy better and safer. The sniper and demo take out heavies easily. Sentries aren't too much of a problem except for scouts. and killing medics is done just as well by scouts or any other class that gets a chance to shoot at the medic. In my opinion the spy is a free ubercharge canister for enemy medics these days.

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

+1 crovax
Really nicely said. Be sure to post it on the steam forums.

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Comfortably Numb

Great post.

Like sebas said go and post it on the TF2 Steam forums so everyone can read it.

I cant tell you how wrong you are about spy, 2 spies working together via mumble can do mayhem. You can practice avoiding backstab animation and backstab with normal animation, which is very important, and ability to gain cloak from metal made spy very deadly imho. And a good spy can change flow of the round, by picking up right targets - snipers, medics and engineers with their stuff. Spy will probably be given some buff in near future which is great, but its not that he is useless now, cause he just isnt. Of course he is useless if its played the way you said - trying to pretend like enemy, cause it just doesnt work anymore. You need to stay cloaked most of the time ( which is not hard these days ), trying to stalk people and catch them by suprise. Sometimes youll be lucky enough to stab 3-4 people running together, but most of the time its case of stab->cloak. Im not the great spy, but I think i have my moments [E-pen]
[/E-PEN]

So wait, now I need mumble, and another spy to create mayhem? I need to practice stabbing just at the right moment so I don't get the backstab animation? So why not remove the whole stabbing animation all together, coz apperantly if you are ultra predictor you can skip it anyhow. Like I said in my post, the spy can still get kills and perform well if you go up against a bunch of nubs. Your post fails on so many levels, its just not funny. Trying to pretend like enemy, where did I say that? The only map you can be constant stealth is fastlane, because that map has an abundance of healthpacks and ammo packs. I thought it was pretty clear from my post that the spy can still kill and get a good score, just that any other class performs his role just as good if not better. There have been plenty of games where I got very nice scores as a spy, usually on fastlane (gasp just like your screenshot). But just a few smart players and the spies role gets reduced to nothing.

Anyhow send me a couple of demo's of where you show how awesome the spy is, and I might believe your: hush everythings fine.

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

You can do well as a spy versus any team, all issues postes by you are series issues with spy, but since no major update will take place in near future, you just need to play spy using various tricks ;] I meant disguise part of your first post - running around diguised as any class trying to act like enemy just doesnt work, you need to stay cloaked most of the time to be usefull. And I couldnt be bothered to record demos, I just enjoy playing spy like it is now, and probably will enjoy it if any updates will be made in the future - just for that hilarious moments that happens between many failed backstabs

You do have to come out of stealth at some point mate, and at that point the disguise does not suffice at all.

I would propose a prop shooter, that shoots little paper airplanes for rockets, paper balls for grenades and small paper pellets for guns. They do no damage at all but will look like you are firing your gun to the enemy (pyro would be confetti). This would actually create a more believable disguise, which might actually be used to pretend you are the enemy. Right now I fully agree that relying on the disguise is stupid and should only be done for a short burst to close a gap between enemy and your knife. This would replace for example the sapper.

Anyhow, I am still going to play it, because I am a bit of a masochist when it comes down to playing games. I always try to pick the weakest classes :p

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

yup Crovax, i love spy, the thought of it and actually carrying it out but it really is an exercise in frustration, lucky to get 1for1 kill to death, I don't know about Bartg, i've had a game like that solo as a spy, but it wascomplete chance and complete noobs on the other team.

Argueing that the spy isn't there to get kills is bollocks, because no one likes getting no kills and dying all the time.

and you know what that causeS?

auto balance, i ONLY GET AUTO BALANCED when i play spy?

Why is that?

Spies are targeted for auto balance or is it the poor kill to deaths? But honestly i've only been switched once as something else, and constantly as spy, sometimes between teams 3 times in one game, nice that was fun thanks.

Constantly miss backstabs, the range is too short, shorter than any other weapon, you have to be pressing against someone almost, and the slightestmovement and you miss, i don't miss backstabs as much when it does a shortstab motion.

It's not about QQing about the class and learning to play, it really is bugged and sucky! Spies should gain the ability to move through someone when they are disguised, because hit detection is instant fail every time.

While cloaked, bumping into people is fine, as being cloaked u should be dodging people, part of the fun, although sometimes it's unjust but then again so is a critical hit across the map, or a crit rocket to the face when u step round a corner.



I consider myself very good at spotting spies, because spies are SO obivous, group of friendlies running, spies stand out a mile, not even because of health bar although that does seal the deal sometimes.

But you know i don't think my "skill" at spy spotting is unique, although i was in a game yesterday where the spy got away with unbelievable amounts even though i could spot him a mile off, lack of experiance on my team then, i think everyone who's played the game for a substantial amount of time, well, not even substantial amount can be and probably are skilled at spy spotting.

I QQ a lot and moan when i'm spy, and people tell me to l2p, i'm glad i'm not the only one

(just like i said Nastacha did F all dmg, and oh look valve has patched it, i was right then?)

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Computer is fixed. That is all.

Well at the moment the best course of action is, try to unstealth as close to the back of someone as possible, and pray nobody of their team comes around the corner, out of the door, or happens to turn around just as you uncloak.

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

Spy is certainly not useless.

He just got more useless in sapping, tracking and such.

The "uncloak and dagger (and then go away and repeat)" works best, though it also much depends on luck.

On an attack/defend map, you can sometimes easily take out half a team before being killed or noticed. It's hard, bit rare, but it happens.

Actually i came into this thread with nothing in my mind except the fact that i sometimes do good as spy and that sapping sentries is usually really really hard. Especially if it's 2nd stage dustbowl and the red team is turtling like gondor

This is actually a very good and creative idea. But I dont think that paperplanes would fit the gamestyle (a secret agent with a toy for little children?). But I like the concept.

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All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

That no-clip idea was great!

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slurper

I think you should just a see a red flag with bang written on it come out of his pistol Cool idea crovax

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

Its a revolver ffs

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All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

Lol!
No but that truly are some creative and kinda funny ideas Crovax.
Will be interesting to see what they will change about spy gameplay in future.
Think we'll have to wait for the spy class update though...
Fact is, I sometimes like to play spy now and then, always great fun, even if it has become more difficult.
But it always was like that tbh.

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Ze Ãœbermensch

I dont care

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

only using revolver works the best

So annoying playing against a spy who does spams from miles away with the revolver

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

yup, most spies forget about the revolver, but it really helps a lot. Although its a bitch to hit something that moves sideways at reasonable distance and speeds. Still a very underapreciated weapon for the spy.

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

it's bloody annoying when the backstab animation screws you over, yeah

the most annoying thing I find about the spy is that when, say, you're on attack on a payload map (or dustbowl even) you're pretty much pinned down inside your own spawn area, with little to no chance of getting out unnoticed due to the rocket/nade/minigun spam coming through. it's the perfect time to wreak havoc, with medics just waiting for the right time to uber, or engis that aren't quite finished setting up shop yet, but more likely than not you're going to get hit on the way out and have your cover blown >_>

EDIT: also, revolver sniping ftw, it makes for some real 'wtf' moments if you're in a hard to spot place :p

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ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: true genius
ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: doesn't make sense
ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: till you're senseless

I agree with everything in your first post, mr. Crovax.

The spy was fun to play in the beginning when not everyone and their mom could tell the difference between a teamplayer and an enemy spy.
Now it's so easy and almost become a routine to notice a spy, which makes people who think they're ubergodly spies cry for cheats and hax.

Spies, for me, are pretty much useless the way the game is now (at an increased maxplayer and faster respawn server).
It's just frustrating and boring which leads to ragequit. It were my favorite class early on, but now it's ~impossible to have fun if you play against anyone remotely good,
and if you don't, game mechanics screw you over.

/me is ze spy master. all you snipers die.

lets have a pool, how many months left till corvax had all the classes pinned as the worst?

Me + cookye + revolver = kills

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

It's not often i admit such a thing, but i got absolutely raped by a spy in gold rush, me as a sniper, about 3 times, at the start on my own, he appeared, shot me 3 times with revolver i was dead, i tried to react but each time i was dead even as my secondary was coming out.

I tried changing tactic, i know, scope and headshot, i was dead before the the cross hair appeared.

NOW

Spies aint TOTALLY useless, just in most situations ^_^

(i was not gonna be a noob and go pyro)

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Computer is fixed. That is all.

Thats obviously the most important spy task - piss of enemy snipers and force them to act paranoid seeking conspiracies everywhere

Most important spy task is to own everyone with revolver imo. I actually got a backstab on someone sticky jumping to the last point of gravelpit while they were in mid air (jumped off the platform and stabbed him as he tried to land), the the revolver kills were still awesome

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

The only reason i usually play spy is to get back at those pesky snipers when i am a snipah

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02:47 <@NabNab> saifon: you so sexy
02:47 <+saifon> D:

I don't think that spy is useless. You just have to know how to behave and play as spy, and you can be on top of score list and also the most annoying guy in game.

haha, unless i'm having a bad day, the best way to get back at enemy snipers is to snipe them in the face? lol

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Computer is fixed. That is all.