SpecialAttack.net :: Blogpost about the new dropsystem

Why did we build a new system?

* With our first four class updates we were tying the new weapons for each class to a set of achievements. Our intention was to make a set of achievements that eventually all players would get, and would be fun to get along the way. In some cases we did a good job at this (Scout), and in some cases we did a bad one (Medic). Across all of the class packs we were disappointed in the number of people that got to play with the new weapons, and feedback from the community was generally not favorable with this approach.

What did we do?

* For the last number of months we've been working on using the Steam Cloud to store a player's inventory. With that finally in place, we were able to deploy a new system focused on the giving of items to players. That new system watches the amount of time that players are playing TF2, and gives them a chance to find items at regular intervals. They aren't guaranteed to get the item at those points, but they have a pretty good chance. We based the system on granting items on the amount of time played because we don't want players to have to do weird things like join achievement grinding servers to get new content. Basing it off time also has the benefit of ensuring that if you play a lot of TF2, you're going to get more items than players who don't.

How long do I have to play to get an item?

* When we were tuning this system we first looked at the average amount of time that players spend playing TF2 daily. From there, we set the goal of most players having around 20 items in their inventory after a couple of weeks of play. If you're someone who plays a lot of TF2, you're going to get items a lot faster than that. In the first few hours after the release yesterday, we had some issues that prevented the system from working properly, so that timeframe was not indicative of the system as it's designed.

Is this the way we'll find items from now on?

* Like everything else we build, we'll be iterating on this system for a while, and have a lot of features planned. Some of the next things we have planned are:

- Item trading. This is why you're finding duplicates.

- Giving players a method to influence the system so they can work directly toward getting specific items.

- Adding more rare items like the hats.

We're going to be working on and rolling these out while we're also working on the next class pack, with the goal being to get it all released before then.

In the first few hours after the release yesterday, we had some issues that prevented the system from working properly

Yes, you can probably unlock something 5 minutes after downloading the game

I hope they will change the overview page of your backpack inventory.

Now you cannot drag/drop your items into groups. For example I would like to have all my medic items with eachather, and also the ability to move the duplicates close to eachother would be a nice thing -> this so you can keep a better track of what you actually have.

THen about the inventory size.
On my screen I have 5 * 10 columns, so that means that I can have 50 items.

All the classes have 3 unlockables which means that I require 27 slots for them, which then still leaves me with 23 slots left.

Is Valve going to produce even more hats, as 23 is quite a lot.

I personally still prefer the milestone achievement way of getting weapons. You would at least have to work for the unlocks.

...

I reckon they should keep the new unlock system for the hats so you can still trade hats with other people. They should go back to the old system for the weapon unlocks.

TheVortessence wrote:

YES YES YES - more hats and back to the milestones, nicely put The Vortessence!

annarack wrote:

YES YES YES - more hats and back to the milestones, nicely put The Vortessence!

I vote for a double system. Gaining weapons trough achievements AND random drops.

healer LFG quick cp_well run, /w me for invite

Team Fortress 2 Update Released

Added Sniper/Spy milestone achievements as an additional way players can get the new unlockables

Arena Mode

Added tf_arena_use_queue server convar. Turn this on to get the old queue behavior. Default is off

Added tf_arena_round_time to set a timelimit on the round

Added the userid of the player who built the teleporter to the "player_teleported" event

Fixed player killed event causing server crash

Fixed Spies not being telefragged when standing on an enemy teleporter exit with the Dead Ringer enabled

Fixed attackers seeing the mini-crit particle effect for full crits if the victim has the Jarate effect enabled

Fixed the Ambassador not doing damage to buildings

Fixed Spies disguised as their own team not drawing blood effects

Fixed players killed by flaming arrows not showing the appropriate death icon

Author:	saifon [ 23 May 2009, 02:14 ]
Post subject:	Blogpost about the new dropsystem
http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2535 Quote: Why did we build a new system? * With our first four class updates we were tying the new weapons for each class to a set of achievements. Our intention was to make a set of achievements that eventually all players would get, and would be fun to get along the way. In some cases we did a good job at this (Scout), and in some cases we did a bad one (Medic). Across all of the class packs we were disappointed in the number of people that got to play with the new weapons, and feedback from the community was generally not favorable with this approach. What did we do? * For the last number of months we've been working on using the Steam Cloud to store a player's inventory. With that finally in place, we were able to deploy a new system focused on the giving of items to players. That new system watches the amount of time that players are playing TF2, and gives them a chance to find items at regular intervals. They aren't guaranteed to get the item at those points, but they have a pretty good chance. We based the system on granting items on the amount of time played because we don't want players to have to do weird things like join achievement grinding servers to get new content. Basing it off time also has the benefit of ensuring that if you play a lot of TF2, you're going to get more items than players who don't. How long do I have to play to get an item? * When we were tuning this system we first looked at the average amount of time that players spend playing TF2 daily. From there, we set the goal of most players having around 20 items in their inventory after a couple of weeks of play. If you're someone who plays a lot of TF2, you're going to get items a lot faster than that. In the first few hours after the release yesterday, we had some issues that prevented the system from working properly, so that timeframe was not indicative of the system as it's designed. Is this the way we'll find items from now on? * Like everything else we build, we'll be iterating on this system for a while, and have a lot of features planned. Some of the next things we have planned are: - Item trading. This is why you're finding duplicates. - Giving players a method to influence the system so they can work directly toward getting specific items. - Adding more rare items like the hats. We're going to be working on and rolling these out while we're also working on the next class pack, with the goal being to get it all released before then. TRADING! Awesome! <3

Author:	Sawyer [ 23 May 2009, 03:39 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
Of course, the old system had its flaws, but at least it worked great in theory: People are working towards their achievements and as a reward they receive their unlockable items. Yes, I know, a lot of players screwed this system up by farming achievements on empty servers or on achievement servers, but at least the system had something to do with skill and competition. Now, with the new system, luck and time are important. The aspect of skill becomes negligible and TF2 turns more and more into an MMORPG.

Author:	Lim-Dul [ 23 May 2009, 03:55 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
Achievements had very little to do with skill and actually screwed up the gameplay pretty much if you tried to earn them. Now you can earn weapons by playing ANY class in a completely NORMAL way. Farming players didn't break the system - the system was flawed and HENCE people were farming. And how do unlocks affect skill? It's a false correlation - they are only a small part of the gameplay. Does the fact that you got a Jarate make you a better Sniper than Frosty all of the sudden? Good players remain good and bad players are still screwed. It's just a question of how to deliver new content and doing it on a time basis is actually a good idea - all other games with unlockable weapons did that pretty much like this - it also follows the concept of "spoon feeding" content to your customers - you always have something to look forward to and that keeps you involved. The system isn't perfect YET but I believe with the coming additions it will become pretty enjoyable.

Author:	[SpA]Baal Kagan [ 23 May 2009, 08:45 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
already read it, sounds pretty good to me! <3 oh & btw s!phon!! <3 ;P

Author:	[SpA]Scatterbrain [ 23 May 2009, 08:48 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
ah, that isn't as bad as I thought then (though I did thinks we would be able to trade our stuff at some point) now, who wants all my sandviches?

SpecialAttack.net https://forum.specialattack.net/

Blogpost about the new dropsystem https://forum.specialattack.net/viewtopic.php?t=5583	Page 1 of 2

Author:	[SpA]Minimoose! [ 23 May 2009, 09:10 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
Yup, I like the new way, once they get the drop rate sorted out anyway. Achievements meant that either you had to ruin a public server by doing them on it (e.g not playing the game like it should be and pissing off the rest of your team) or you had to get them on an achievement server, which didn't harm anyone, but defeated the whole point of achievements. Trading was quite an obvious implement, but it will be too late by the time it's released to actually help that many people.

Author:	sebas [ 23 May 2009, 10:48 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
Quote: In the first few hours after the release yesterday, we had some issues that prevented the system from working properly So it's working as intended now? And it was also in the late hours last night when nobody was getting shit? Ain't that a kick in the balls. @Miniboobs Well guess what people are doing just now. Yep: http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/42/71763740.jpg (not my pic) So I fail to see how that solved anything other than the fact that achievments are take a bit more seriously. And trading system for what? Roughly 40-50 items this game will hold in the near future? Doesn't that seem like a total waste of resources and time since some of the items are really really rare anyway, so the odds of getting duplicates are just so small.

Author:	ZxS [ 23 May 2009, 11:41 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
It looks as if the unlockables became the main point of the game. Farming? Valve couldn't care less imho; why stop the players doing it? I think it wasn't farming that made them introduce the new system. Marketing was. Afaik the new system gives you stuff based on how much you play. If you are a regular, you get them over a long period. If you are an occasional player, you get them fast. "Everyone of you deserves a medal", right? But all this sounds like marketing. Incentives given to keep the players playing no matter what. Achievements were incentives as well. Except they were in our control... Oh, and I disagree with the statement that achievements ruined the game. I had all my unlocks from playing on your lovely servers. I hardly felt like it was harming the game, plus some achievements request you be better at what you do. As a matter of fact I think I'm harming the game alot more when I act like an idiot jumping around with an ubersaw.

Author:	Barbas [ 23 May 2009, 14:42 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
I'm not settled yet on whether I like the system or not. I did farm for achievements with a friend, and I consider that wasted time I'd much rather get the weapons through playing but some of the achievements are too hard/random to get through normal playing time. So in that respect the system improves it. When they add the ability to work towards a specific weapon i think that the system will be much better that it ever was

Author:	Bartg [ 23 May 2009, 15:14 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
Judgind new system is simple: - You got some/all new weapons=awesome system, no stupid achievements and farming - You got no new weapons/5 ubersaws=

Author:	TheVortessence [ 23 May 2009, 15:18 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
I personally still prefer the milestone achievement way of getting weapons. You would at least have to work for the unlocks. Obviously if you went on an achievement server, then you would get all the unlocks easy. But here, you can still get all the unlocks just by going on TF2 and doing nothing. Or by playing absolutely crap and letting the team down. I reckon they should keep the new unlock system for the hats so you can still trade hats with other people. They should go back to the old system for the weapon unlocks.

Author:	DoubleJ [ 23 May 2009, 15:45 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
A question here. If I was playing the Medic/Pyro, which I mostly do. As these classes, am I able to pick up unlockables for the other classes, which I don't play that often?

Author:	Bartg [ 23 May 2009, 15:47 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
Yes, you can probably unlock something 5 minutes after downloading the game

Author:	TheVortessence [ 23 May 2009, 16:23 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
Bartg wrote: Yes, you can probably unlock something 5 minutes after downloading the game Or play 3 hours straight and get nothing

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Author:	Murk [ 23 May 2009, 17:58 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
trading +5% dmg -5%hp nades for +1 beanie hat

Author:	MikeDH [ 24 May 2009, 09:23 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
I agree with minimoose i think it'll be alright, especially after reading that blogpost, good stuff. I wonder if this will make tf2 slightly more addictive as you'll be wanting to keep playing to find "that one damn hat..."

Author:	TheVortessence [ 24 May 2009, 12:24 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
it'll be interesting to see what they make of everyone's comments on this new system. hopefully they'll tweak the system to satisfy everyone

Author:	DoubleJ [ 25 May 2009, 00:33 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
I hope they will change the overview page of your backpack inventory. Now you cannot drag/drop your items into groups. For example I would like to have all my medic items with eachather, and also the ability to move the duplicates close to eachother would be a nice thing -> this so you can keep a better track of what you actually have.

Author:	[SpA]Baal Kagan [ 25 May 2009, 00:41 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
DoubleJ wrote: I hope they will change the overview page of your backpack inventory. Now you cannot drag/drop your items into groups. For example I would like to have all my medic items with eachather, and also the ability to move the duplicates close to eachother would be a nice thing -> this so you can keep a better track of what you actually have. indeed man.

Author:	DoubleJ [ 25 May 2009, 09:22 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
THen about the inventory size. On my screen I have 5 * 10 columns, so that means that I can have 50 items. All the classes have 3 unlockables which means that I require 27 slots for them, which then still leaves me with 23 slots left. Is Valve going to produce even more hats, as 23 is quite a lot.

Author:	[SpA]SaintK [ 25 May 2009, 09:31 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
DoubleJ wrote: THen about the inventory size. On my screen I have 5 * 10 columns, so that means that I can have 50 items. All the classes have 3 unlockables which means that I require 27 slots for them, which then still leaves me with 23 slots left. Is Valve going to produce even more hats, as 23 is quite a lot. I was just thinking the same. Effectively it will be 4 items per class, which ads up to 40 items max. Leaves open 10 slots. Makes one wonder if the levels you see when you get killed (level 10 natasha) might maybe be invluanced by the amount of unlocks for that gun you hold?

Author:	[SpA]futari [ 25 May 2009, 09:33 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
level 50 ubersaw here I come, I should get instantly ubered for 60 seconds after a single hit. Thank you valve <3

Author:	annarack [ 25 May 2009, 09:47 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
TheVortessence wrote: I personally still prefer the milestone achievement way of getting weapons. You would at least have to work for the unlocks. ... I reckon they should keep the new unlock system for the hats so you can still trade hats with other people. They should go back to the old system for the weapon unlocks. YES YES YES - more hats and back to the milestones, nicely put The Vortessence!

Author:	[SpA]SaintK [ 25 May 2009, 10:27 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
annarack wrote: TheVortessence wrote: I personally still prefer the milestone achievement way of getting weapons. You would at least have to work for the unlocks. ... I reckon they should keep the new unlock system for the hats so you can still trade hats with other people. They should go back to the old system for the weapon unlocks. YES YES YES - more hats and back to the milestones, nicely put The Vortessence! I vote for a double system. Gaining weapons trough achievements AND random drops.

Author:	[SpA]Blackhawk [ 25 May 2009, 11:12 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
Valve wrote in the blog that you'll be able to aim for an item of your choice... which sounds like quite a good addition.

Author:	TheVortessence [ 25 May 2009, 11:48 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
[SpA]SaintK wrote: annarack wrote: YES YES YES - more hats and back to the milestones, nicely put The Vortessence! I vote for a double system. Gaining weapons trough achievements AND random drops. That's a good idea too SaintK. I'd be happy with a system like that. At least the player can choose how they want to get the weapon unlocks. That way everyone will be happy.

Author:	Murk [ 25 May 2009, 15:44 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
Please stop calling weapons and hats unlockables and start calling them drops or hidden items or something more like that. Then we'll all get used to this faster because this system is here to stay.

Author:	Mint [ 25 May 2009, 18:22 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
healer LFG quick cp_well run, /w me for invite

Author:	Lim-Dul [ 25 May 2009, 18:39 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
[SpA]Mint wrote: healer LFG quick cp_well run, /w me for invite He, he, he! ^^ Anyways - I wish everybody stopped with the TF2-(MMO)RPG comparisons. It just reveals how rigid and stagnant genre boundaries have become nowadays. Yes, item trading and item pick-ups have mostly been used in MMORPGs so far but does it automatically mean that a system like this, if done properly, couldn't find a place in other genres? Valve are trying to do something novel with their games and if they pull it off then for every nay-sayer there will be five new satisfied customers - so far Valve was quite successful with their games. I remember a similar reaction when TF2 was revealed to have cartoon-ish graphics and yet they have become widely accepted and even copied in other games. I mean - the drop system is only PART of the gameplay mechanics, it doesn't define the whole game. I agree that in its current state the system is broken, annoying and lacking in features but it is for other reasons, NOT because "TF2 is not a MMORPG" - I can very much see it becoming quite enjoyable in future. I just wish they introduced it earlier so we would already be after several iterations of the drop system, not just for the last three class packs.

Author:	TheVortessence [ 30 May 2009, 02:21 ]
Post subject:	Re: Blogpost about the new dropsystem
Quote: Team Fortress 2 Update Released Added Sniper/Spy milestone achievements as an additional way players can get the new unlockables Arena Mode Added tf_arena_use_queue server convar. Turn this on to get the old queue behavior. Default is off Added tf_arena_round_time to set a timelimit on the round Added the userid of the player who built the teleporter to the "player_teleported" event Fixed player killed event causing server crash Fixed Spies not being telefragged when standing on an enemy teleporter exit with the Dead Ringer enabled Fixed attackers seeing the mini-crit particle effect for full crits if the victim has the Jarate effect enabled Fixed the Ambassador not doing damage to buildings Fixed Spies disguised as their own team not drawing blood effects Fixed players killed by flaming arrows not showing the appropriate death icon http://store.steampowered.com/news/2545/ Valve have now given players the option to get unlocks by either picking them up over time OR by collecting achievements. Thank you so much Valve!!!