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Flaregun minicritz!
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Author:  [SpA]9mmNL [ 05 Jun 2009, 10:06 ]
Post subject:  Flaregun minicritz!
Well, at least if this forum post on steampowered is true:
Quote:
Hi Kilo.
After some discussion, we agree entirely, this is a great idea. Thanks a bunch, should be in the next update.

Robin.

-----Original Message-----
From: *snip*
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 6:01 AM
To: Robin Walker
Subject: An idea ( Flaregun )

From a Team Fortress 2 player:

Since the Sniper & Spy update, which introduced us to the "Mini Crits"
feature, an idea has emerged from the community: Why don't make the
Flaregun mini-crit on burning players?
Now, I'm not going to give numbers but the reasoning behind this in a
nutshell would be as next: Since the recent update, two counters were
added to the afterburn, Jarate and making the Pyro's compressed air
burst able to extinguish fire. Since we have new tools to counter the
burn, why don't make it a more lethal status and encourage players to
really use these new features to get rid of it? After burn has also lost
its shine in the sense that it doesn't really make people panic that
much and seeking for aid ain't a priority anymore.
The Flaregun is also much less reliable than the shotgun which makes it
very situational and more of a down-grade than a side-grade. This has
been a problem since day one, in my opinion and in the opinion of many
others.

Sincerely, Kilo.
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/s ... p?t=884989
Author:  [SpA]Scatterbrain [ 05 Jun 2009, 11:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
'less reliable'? if you can aim a flaregun you can aim a flaregun, there's no 'reliable' about it.

well, if bad pyros are at the back flaregun spamming, then they're not at the front W+M1 suiciding, which is a good thing on the whole.
Author:  sebas [ 05 Jun 2009, 11:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
That dude should indeed learn what situational is. A shotgun does no damage at long range and quite a lot at short range. THAT's situational. The flaregun does the same dmg either way. Not being able to aim it is not "situational" it's sucking. :P
Author:  [SpA]Revenge [ 05 Jun 2009, 11:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
still tho , the idea is nice
Author:  [SpA]Relentless [ 05 Jun 2009, 12:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
[SpA]sebas wrote:
That dude should indeed learn what situational is. A shotgun does no damage at long range and quite a lot at short range. THAT's situational. The flaregun does the same dmg either way. Not being able to aim it is not "situational" it's sucking. :P
You cant kill a player with a flaregun if you ran out of flamethrower ammo. You can with a shotgun though :P So that is situational^^ Flaregun might be quite an harassment if your the one that is attacking, but for self-defence it just sucks ass.
Author:  Lim-Dul [ 05 Jun 2009, 13:23 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
[SpA]sebas wrote:
That dude should indeed learn what situational is. A shotgun does no damage at long range and quite a lot at short range. THAT's situational. The flaregun does the same dmg either way. Not being able to aim it is not "situational" it's sucking. :P
Both guns are situational. You can't really argue that a gun not hitting due to a slowly moving projectile, one that quickly drops off at a certain range while we're at it, is the player's fault - in the time it takes the projectile to fly to the enemy he can do all sorts of stuff and hence even the best movement prediction won't work - especially if he sees the flare coming.

It's as if you were saying that someone sucks because he can't hit anybody directly with a rocket across the spire valley on badlands.

Also, the Flaregun only holds one shell which makes it very ineffective at below medium range and like the guy with the Mini-Crit suggestion said a bit useless on already burning targets.

Last but not least the Flaregun is situational because of the Pyro's modus operandi. His primary way of attacking people will always be the Flamethrower, which ALREADY sets people on fire and the Shotgun is MUCH more effective at finishing off retreating enemies since they are close to the Pyro by default.
Author:  sebas [ 05 Jun 2009, 13:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
With a shotgun you'd do no damage across the spire valley in badlands, with the flaregun you'd make them either retreat or lose a lot of hp on their way to you(100?), if not actually managing to kill them with it.
In close range you'd be burning enemies or axing them much more often than switching to the shotty while in medium range the shotty is only more effective if you manage to hit a lot of the shots. Why prefer hitting them 3-4 times when you can only hit them once and get the kill? If you only need one shot then you also have more thime to focus on hitting the target.

I don't play pyro much but since the flare's dmg buff I find it a lot more of a nuisance than the shotty. Especially when playing scout or sniper. I'm not saying that the minicrits is a bad ideea just that you can't regard the flaregun as being "situational and a downgrade" when compared to the other option.
Author:  [SpA]Bucky [ 05 Jun 2009, 13:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
If they're gonna pimp the flaregun and make the afterburn bite a bit more, I'll pwn you all!
Author:  Lim-Dul [ 05 Jun 2009, 14:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
[SpA]sebas wrote:
With a shotgun you'd do no damage across the spire valley in badlands, with the flaregun you'd make them either retreat or lose a lot of hp on their way to you(100?), if not actually managing to kill them with it.
My point was that you wouldn't be able to hit anybody expecting a hit at this range anyway. And the fact that a Pyro would even want to engage a player at that range is, again, VERY situational and goes against the usual Pyro tactics.
Quote:
In close range you'd be burning enemies or axing them much more often than switching to the shotty
No, you do that at point blank range.
You switch to Shotty when people are outside your Flamethrower/Axing range (so close range) and only newbies try to run after a retreating enemy with the Flamethrower since it mostly ends in disaster. The damage output of the Shotty in this case is head and shoulder over that of the Flaregun whether you aim well or not, simply because of the firing rate.
Quote:
while in medium range the shotty is only more effective if you manage to hit a lot of the shots. Why prefer hitting them 3-4 times when you can only hit them once and get the kill?
You do realize that the Flaregun does ~30 damage? "Hit them once and kill them?" ;-)
Even at medium range the Shotgun does 17-50 damage per second, which on average is still more than the Flaregun.
Quote:
If you only need one shot then you also have more thime to focus on hitting the target.
Uuuhm - you sound like Saxton Hale advertising the FaN. Ha, ha, ha!
Yes, our weapon only has one bullet but that means you have MORE TIME TO AIM! :-D
Quote:
I don't play pyro much but since the flare's dmg buff I find it a lot more of a nuisance than the shotty.
It wasn't exactly a damage buff - it was a change in behavior. Before the "buff" the Flaregun did more damage at long range than point blank and that was an interesting albeit a bit overpowered idea.
Quote:
Especially when playing scout or sniper.
Scout? How do you get hit by a Flaregun when playing a Scout? You must be very unlucky. I play Scout a lot and from my ~6000 deaths across all classes I've been killed by the Flaregun exactly... 10 times. ;-)
Quote:
I'm not saying that the minicrits is a bad ideea just that you can't regard the flaregun as being "situational and a downgrade" when compared to the other option.
It might not be a downgrade but it IS situational however you spin it and doesn't fit the Pyro gameplay style too well, which makes it even more situational.
Yes, the "Proro" used the Flaregun but you know how those skill videos work... He had over 33 hours of footage. ;-)
Author:  [SpA]Relentless [ 05 Jun 2009, 14:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
Quote:
Scout? How do you get hit by a Flaregun when playing a Scout? You must be very unlucky. I play Scout a lot and from my ~6000 deaths across all classes I've been killed by the Flaregun exactly... 10 times. ;-)
I guess I dont have to tell you that, but I'll do nonetheless ;P Scouts usually have to come close if they want to kill you actually. Which iuts you as Pyro at both an advantage and disadvantage. Ofc its not easy to hit a Scout with the Flaregun but its not impossible either. Twitch aiming helps a lot. And if your hitscan-aim sucks ass, the flaregun usually is an even more viable option to kill a scout.

The fact you dont get killed by the flaregun very often is easily described. Either

1) The flaregun only damages you a lot, and another weapon/player does the rest ;P

or

2) You rarely face Pyros with the flare gun

or

3) You rarely face pyros with the flaregun whos aim doesnt suck

OR (and thats the most probable cause by a chance of 99%)

4) You rarely face pyros that know theres another weapon besides their flamethrower :D Honestly people, you got a shotgun for a reason
Author:  Lim-Dul [ 05 Jun 2009, 14:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
You actually know people who have a better "lead-aim" than "hitscan-aim"? I think that it's only possible if they played too much demoman/soldier and forgot to adjust. ;-)

But yeah, the other points are probably valid which still makes the Flaregun a sucky option TBH.

However, looking at the best Pyro players (or at least the ones who play this class very often) in the stats they seem to do very well with the Shotty and have lads of kills with it - except for Amyl, which is probably indicative of *something*. :-P
Author:  sebas [ 05 Jun 2009, 14:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
The flaregun does 30dmg+60 from afterburn and you don't get killed as a scout by the flaregun but it keeps the pyro alive since you have to retreat. He stands no chance with the shotty. :>
As for the whole range aiming thing, you'll be constantly hitting heavies, soldiers and snipers at long range and a lot more in crowded places.

So, you have a weapon that's good in med-long range (combined with the afterburn you can deal a LOT more damage than the shotty can ever put out) and a shotty that's good in short range which is exactly the range of your flamethrower. The shotty will do 80 dmg point blank, sure, but you aren't really going to use it there.

The only issue is that the afterburn does not stack so if an enemy retreating is already on fire from your flamethrower you'd only gain 30mdg+10 or 20 from 1-2 seconds of prolonged afterburn. That's enough to kill him if he's retreating after being the in the close range of your flamethrower, no?

You might argue some more but the only thing the shotty does better is finish off a burning target on 80hp. Don't tell me you want to argue that a weapon is less situational than one that offers new tactics from range, better mid fighting damage and the only true defence against a scout in an open area.

And you may've found the whole more time to aim thing funny but you should know better from playing scout, that the one time you are trully vulnerable is during the fall from a double jump. ;) That's what all your oponents wait and aim for. It's the same with a retreating enemy, you have an extra "second" to aim because you only need to hit once to kill.

As for the stats, they mean what? That the shotty killed before the afterburn did? C'mon, 60dmg is a LOT. :)
Author:  Lim-Dul [ 05 Jun 2009, 14:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
How many times do I have to explain that the shotty isn't used IN PLACE of the Flamethrower, but to finish off retreating enemies OUTSIDE its range AND to kill Pyros in a Pyro vs Pyro encounter? And you do not move in to land a single 80 hp hit because that's just retarded - your Flamethrower does more damage per second at such ranges.

You ambush an enemy with the Flamethrower - what is his usual reaction? Run away and dodge like mad - if he's slower than you, well, good for you, if he manages to go outside your range you start shooting him to death with the Shotty and it's almost impossible to miss with it - you do quite a lot of damage with it PER SECOND considering the firing rate and the 6 shells you have. With the Flaregun you'd not be able to finish him off and the thing about getting him to retreat is bullshit because he would be retreating anyway - he's on fire after all. ;-)

With the Flaregun you have a weapon that's acceptable, not good, at medium range (much less so if the enemy is actively evading you, regardless of your aim) and useful at long range only in certain situations (immobile targets). It is an ANNOYING gun, yes, a bit like the Sandman, but it's not a gun with true finishing potential and one that doesn't complement Pyro tactics too well.

And yes, the Shotty still outdamages the Flaregun at medium range since you're looking at the wrong statistic - we are not dealing with single-hit arguments here but with damage per second and the Flaregun sucks at that because of the reload time, even with the target on fire.

And no, a Scout doesn't need to retreat from the Flaregun - that's precisely its weakness. 30+60 = 90 damage and that over time. In this time you can run circles around the Pyro since he can't do shit against you without his Shotty, which might otherwise allow him to out-damage you considering his HP advantage. What I do with Flaregun Pyros is, in the unlikely event the hit me with the Flaregun, I kill them (perhaps even with the pistol) and then comfortably run to the nearest healthpack. ;-)

My point still is that the Flaregun isn't necessarily weaker than the Shotgun but very much as situational.
The fact that it offers long range options for the Pyro isn't a valid argument by the way - the Pyro isn't a long range class and as we all know "universal means good for nothing". If you take away the Pyro's Shotty he suddenly becomes much less effective at close range (and still sucks at long range) because he simply isn't able to finish people off after setting them on fire with the Flamethrower if they move outside his range.

Geez - I find it ironic that you theorize about Pyro tactics even though you yourself admitted that you don't play Pyro much (I can't check how much cause your Steam profile is set to private :-P).

P.S. If you look at the official TF2 gameplay stats the Flaregun is SO underused that it takes the last spot in all of them (I suspect it does so because there isn't even enough data to compare it to other guns ^^) and the argument that it's an "expert" gun is also bullcrap - if it's performing so badly then there must be a reason for it if people are able to get used to all other guns. Valve is very much aware of this and hence accepted the Mini-Crit idea.
The global gameplay stats pretty much make all discussion about the Flaregun being good or bad a moot point. It's like discussing Street Fighter tiers - yes, Daigo would still beat you with Dan but it doesn't mean that the character doesn't utterly suck balls (by design).
Author:  Bartg [ 05 Jun 2009, 15:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
Flaregun is a) 10x more fun than shottie b) cool c) awesome for hitting spy/sniper across the map making them retreat :mrgreen: But minikritz from it ? Hmm that sounds awesome, bring it on 8)
Author:  [SpA]Bucky [ 05 Jun 2009, 16:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
A discussion with Lim-Dul and bartg, I think I'll pass this one ,hf!
Author:  DrMcMoist [ 05 Jun 2009, 16:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
Meh.

I'll never trade in my shotgun for a Flaregun. Even with Mini-crits.

And it's exactly for the reasons that Lim-Dul explains. I rely on the shotgun to take down enemies that run away from me when I set them on fire. It comes in extremely handy if I've also taken a lot of damage in the fight and need to retreat post haste. By firing back I can either deplete the burning enemies health more ensuring they won't make it to a Medpack, or I end up killing them. And that certainly saves my bacon.

When it all comes down to it though, I always try to get in close, and behind the enemy for that matter considering that my weapon of choice is the Backburner. Trying to use the Flare Gun in any kind of combat situation would just feel alien to me. And with the Pyro and Medic able to extinguish flames, I still don't feel it really justifies using it. I can take enemies down almost instantaneously with the Backburner if I'm exactly behind them. If I don't kill them, or I have to engage them from the front then I set them on fire and I change to my shotgun and starting blasting. More often than not, if I can't even hit them with my Backburner from the front, then I pull back and retreat with the intention of flanking them. I can't exactly shoot them with the Flaregun then change to Shottie. So nah. I'll stay with the Backburner/Shotgun combo.

And one last thing, the Shotgun comes in very handy when you find yourself in a fight underwater. Usually in these situations the enemy is retreating and their HP is dwindling. If I have to swim over to a Heavy with an Axe then I'm going to be fucked, even if he has low HP. Couple of Shotgun shells to the face though and the jobs a good un'.
Author:  sebas [ 05 Jun 2009, 16:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
Shotty underwater, definetly, that is a good point. And pyro vs pyro.

Lim, mate, on 125hp you get a flaregun in your face and you don't run for a medpack but keep fighting with 30hp? If you actually do that then you're a suicidal scout. If the pyro ambushes an enemy then the situation is kill or be killed, there woun't really be time to switch to secondary. Before the update the scout was the least played class, did that make him the weakest?

..and we could probably go on like this but best we give it a rest. :)

As for the time played time argument, haha. I don't play pyro because I don't like it much, I fail to see how you having twice the hours put in that I have is compelling in any way. ^_^
Author:  Lim-Dul [ 05 Jun 2009, 16:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
The Flaregun deals damage over time - after you end up on 35 hp the Pyro is long dead. I don't say Pyro is or isn't compelling - I'm just saying that you shouldn't theorize about Pyro tactics if you aren't experienced with this class.

By the way - as far as I know McMoist is one of our Pyro Shotty leaders and a Pyro for life, so listen to the man. :-D
Author:  [SpA]Dekar [ 05 Jun 2009, 16:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
If I have an enemy in flamethrower range, I just dont let them escape.
As long as they dont have long straight way to run away and move faster than you, you can airblast them even when they are out of flamer range.

Flaregun has the obvious advantage of dealing damage even when the enemy took cover, as in running around a corner because a single hit is enough for a large damage potential, while the shotgun deals more damage in certain circumstances ( pyro enemy, medium range, enemy has no cover, water ).

Afterburn as well as 1-4 shotgun shots are both equally easy healed by medics and healthkits, I dont think thats a serious disadvantage for the flaregun.
Author:  Lim-Dul [ 05 Jun 2009, 16:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
Quote:
Afterburn as well as 1-4 shotgun shots are both equally easy healed by medics and healthkits, I dont think thats a serious disadvantage for the flaregun.
Well - with the difference that after the Shotgun shots you will most likely be dead so there won't be anything left for the Medic to heal while the Flaregun leaves lots and lots of time to do something about your condition.

Anyways - I think on my side everything has been said. The global gameplay stats also tell a story and when people think that a gun is crap because people aren't proficient with it and NOT that the gun is not very good (not bad either, just not very good) and HENCE people aren't using it are clearly mistaken because that isn't how "flavor of the month" tendencies work.
Author:  Bartg [ 05 Jun 2009, 16:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
Quote:
A discussion with Lim-Dul and bartg, I think I'll pass this one ,hf!
Afair Its Mcmoist Lim and sebas discussing :P And I agree with Dekar, with airblast you can easily keep enemy in flamethrower range or even axtinguisher range :)
Author:  Lim-Dul [ 05 Jun 2009, 16:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
Well - we aren't discussing Backburner vs normal Flamethrower, are we? 'Cause I also think that the Flamethrower has an advantage over the Backburner in most cases now that the hp bonus is completely gone.

P.S. As a side note: both Dekar and Bart have far more Pyro Shotty kills than Flaregun kills. ^^
Author:  Traget [ 05 Jun 2009, 16:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
Fuck yes, now 2 flares will be nuff' for scoots :D
Author:  [SpA]Dekar [ 05 Jun 2009, 17:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
I got several Flaregun kills today. :4

I just dont need the shotgun for close medium range, and for everything else I can as well have my fun with the flaregun.
Would I use the backburner, I would propably switch back to the shotty, because you have an even smaller action radius with your backburner and as result closer enemys you cant fight with it, greatly increasing potential shotgun damage.
Author:  [SpA]Edeph [ 05 Jun 2009, 18:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
Nice idea
Author:  [SpA]Loke [ 05 Jun 2009, 18:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
Shotgun > Flaregun.

That was easy.
Author:  [SpA]Minimoose! [ 05 Jun 2009, 19:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
Image

I use flaregun all the time, I hardly ever miss scouts with it (within a certain range of course), you hit a scout with it once/twice then run away to a nice ambush position. If they follow you, they will be low anyway and you can kill them easily. Mostly they will just leg it and either die from burning or heal.

Its very nice to finish people off without putting yourself in danger, where-as with the shotgun, to give significant damage you have to still be in a dangerous range (e.g soldiers can hit you easily with rockets).

Another advantage is that you can fire it at certain targets who are being attacked by other team mates and either get and easy kill or assist.

It's mainly about how good you are at picking your targets, I probably get around half my kills as pyro with the flaregun, and the majority of my assists.

The point about Dekar and Bartg having more shotty kills than flaregun kills is silly, because maybe they just use the shotty more since it suites their game style. I can easily get to the top of the scores as pyro with the flaregun, with a 4-1 kpd and half my kills with the flaregun :/ I suppose me playing soldier helps with my prediction aiming, but still, it's an awesome alternative to the shotgun.
Author:  Bartg [ 05 Jun 2009, 19:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
Ive been using flaregun for 1 or 2 months, so not much kills, as flaregun mostly generates assists :P
Author:  [SpA]Minimoose! [ 05 Jun 2009, 20:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
Bartg wrote:
Ive been using flaregun for 1 or 2 months, so not much kills, as flaregun mostly generates assists :P
Not if you use it correctly :3 It will generate you tonnes of both.
Author:  Lim-Dul [ 05 Jun 2009, 20:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Flaregun minicritz!
Minimoose - you could probably generate a 4:1 K:D ratio by running around as a Sniper with the Kukri so you have no vote on this one. ;-)
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