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pl 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2010, 22:32 
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Pretty useless (97)
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I would go with scramble per player score. K-D ratio is pretty useless if we're talking about scouts+cp / medics+map_of_any_type :)

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pl 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2010, 23:03 
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Has no REAL life! (1715)
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We need the scrambler back on cp maps, one team was raped by the other 8 of 10 rounds :/


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2010, 01:31 
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is Wonder Woman (5950)
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I have re-written it but I was hoping there'd be some more ideas on here. But I guess we won't know until we test what I've done.

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2010, 07:52 
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SpA Fookah (4459)
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Well, we had a scramble on a pl map before when the other team didn't even had a chance to attack yet. So I guess we can keep the time limit scramble on pl maps, that whenever somebody scores 2 or more points after each other in a too short period of time the teams get scrambled, only I think it needs to be a bit more lenient. Let's say 3 scores in a row too fast or something? Tbh, we need scramblers on every map, as the teamplay to do something about unbalanced teams on our servers is really poor. Maybe we could turn on scramble after a full round has been plaid on pl maps?
Next to that, I think the scrambler should swap the top 5 best players to the top 5 lowest players of the other team, if you do scramble on the swap top players option, but I think that's not an editable setting on the scrambler.
We could see if we make engies immune to scrambles, I do think it wouldn't be wrong to let engies keep their buildings and such.
Maybe tweak the domination criteria to get a scramble?

// If set, then it will block auto-scrambling from happening two rounds in a row.
// Also stops scrambles from being started if one has occured already during a round.
gs_no_sequential_scramble "1"
Gonna keep this set? Think it'd be best, scramble after scramble after scramble ain't fun.

// Enable the mp_forceautoteam command and block people from using the 'jointeam' and 'spectate commands
gs_block_jointeam "0"
Maybe turn this one on?

// Allow clients to choose buddies so that the plugin will try to auto-balance them together,
// and not scramble buddies who are on the same team
gs_use_buddy_system "0"
Sounds like too much of a hastle, although Amyl would be happy with this setting :D I do think we should not make admins immune, not at all. So this could be a good option for ppl who don't want to be split up from their buddy, they will get teamswapped together in this case.

// If set, block client changes to spectator that result in a team imbalance
gs_prevent_spec_imbalance "0"
Set this on, screw those specate fokkers :P

Votings gonna be off I assume?

The only other idea I have right now is that I should smoke a big fat djonko and go back to bed.

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no 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2010, 13:21 
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Doesn't get out much (348)
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m3n wrote:
Quote:
// How many of the top players to protect on each team from autobalance.
gs_ab_protect "5"
why this looks intensely dumb
That's the autobalancer though, not the scrambler part. It's disabled by default.

As mr. ballman said, it should really just be disabled on payload maps, as the plugin punish people who make an effort.
The winning team on any payload map are gonna have way more points than the defenders, which results in a scramble every time.

The domination part should just be disabled imo, it's not really an indicator of balance.


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2010, 13:33 
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is Wonder Woman (5950)
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I'll post what I have changed when I get home tonight :18

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2010, 13:40 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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[SpA]moPP wrote:
As mr. ballman said,
Wait, am I reading this right? Did you just call me Mr. Ballman!?!?!?!?! :evil:

I like it :ugly:

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2010, 15:03 
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SpA Fookah (4459)
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[SpA]moPP wrote:
As mr. ballman said, it should really just be disabled on payload maps, as the plugin punish people who make an effort.
The winning team on any payload map are gonna have way more points than the defenders, which results in a scramble every time.

The domination part should just be disabled imo, it's not really an indicator of balance.
Can't we just make the win limit higher and make the ppl that are taking that effort immune somehow?

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2010, 15:05 
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[SpA]Bucky wrote:
[SpA]moPP wrote:
As mr. ballman said, it should really just be disabled on payload maps, as the plugin punish people who make an effort.
The winning team on any payload map are gonna have way more points than the defenders, which results in a scramble every time.

The domination part should just be disabled imo, it's not really an indicator of balance.
Can't we just make the win limit higher and make the ppl that are taking that effort immune somehow?
You'll have to comply to the provided config. We won't do any custom coding on this plugin.


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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2010, 18:20 
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SpA Fookah (4459)
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Alright, so that leaves admins, medics, top x players and charged medics that we could make immune? But from both teams, right?

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2010, 18:41 
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[SpA]Bucky wrote:
Alright, so that leaves admins, medics, top x players and charged medics that we could make immune? But from both teams, right?
It's for both teams yes. Admins won't get immunity.


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2010, 19:07 
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Has no REAL life! (3493)
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taking a look through the scrambler settings now.

first off, i'm gonna assume that we're not using the autobalance stuff; we seem to have some other system up for that. stuff changed from default + comments is highlighted in red. stuff to consider changing is in orange.

[SpA]SaintK wrote:


// **************************
// *
// Auto-scramble settings *
// *
// **************************


// Enables/disables the automatic scrambling.
gs_autoscramble "1"

// Auto-scramble only after a full round has completed.
gs_as_fullroundonly "1"


// If a teams wins with a frag ratio greater than or equal to this setting, trigger a scramble
// 0 = disables this check
gs_as_hfragratio "2.0"
maybe a bit harsh? not a very good measurement on full server games, where points per minute and co. is a better indication, but it would work better when the server is just getting filled - see minimum number of players settings below.

// Starts a scramble vote instead of scrambling at the end of a round
gs_as_vote "0"

the whole point of this exercise is to get things as automated as possible. but if it's still not working as well as we would like, this could be pretty useful.

// If a team wins in less time, in seconds, than this, and has a frag ratio greater than specified: perform an auto scramble.
// 0 = disables this check
gs_as_wintimelimit "120.0"
frag ratio required below. if you lose Granary in two minutes, you're doin it wrong. redundant for payload maps and, to a leser extent, CTF maps. hard to balance for smaller games though (see setting for minimum players)

// Lower kill ratio for teams that win in less than the wintime_limit.
gs_as_wintimeratio "0.1"
a team that wins that quickly is obviously alot better; frag ratio doesn't come into it.

// If the average score difference for all players on each team is greater than this, then trigger a scramble.
// 0 = disables this check
gs_as_playerscore_avgdiff "10.0" *******

// If a team has this many more dominations than the other team, then trigger a scramble.
// 0 = disables this check
gs_as_domination_diff "0"

// If enabled, trigger a scramble if a team never captures the point in koth mode
gs_as_koth_pointcheck "0"


// **************************
// *
// global scramble settings *
// *
// **************************

// Minimum people connected before scrambles are possible
gs_as_minplayers "12"
sounds like a good number. a little higher if anything.

// If enabled, teams will scramble at the end of the 'waiting for players' period
gs_prescramble "0"

// If a scramble happens during setup, restore the setup timer to its starting value
gs_setup_reset "1"
guess this is for when admins using !scramble; means medics can get their uber up properly.


// Sets if admins and people with uber and engie buildings are immune from being scrambled.
// medics + enginneers are not immune during scrambles at the beginning of the round
// 0 = no immunity
// 1 = just admins
// 2 = charged medics + engineers with buildings
// 3 = admins + charged medics and engineers with buildings.
gs_scramble_immune "0 OR 2"
way I see it:
admins: shouldn't be exempt. being exempt stops us from knowing how well the system is working, and so how we can improve.

medics: 99 percent of the time, medics win games. period. from experience, the team with a medic, or more than one medic, will pretty much always beat the team without, unless the skill imbalance is very very big indeed. having charged medics shouldn't matter because A) any medic makes a huge difference, charged or uncharged, and B) it will only come into play whenever an admin uses !scramble, what with the scrambler only kicking it at the end of rounds and all. therefore, the difference between 0, 2 and 3 regarding medics is negligible.

engi: on one hand, there have been complaints about people being switched after getting all their stuff constructed - and this can be annoying. on the other hand, a level three sentry is can be a major factor in determining how well either team is doing. even just having a teleporter or dispenser up an make a load of difference, so for the sake of getting a good balance, you wouldn't want them exempt.

tl;dr version - if you prefer having a better balancing system over people getting annoyed by being balance whilst they have their engi stuff up, pick 2. if it's vice versa, pick 0.


// If a scramble-now happens during setup time, fill up any medic's uber-charge.
gs_setup_recharge "0"
setup time is reset to the beginning anyway, so medics should have plenty of time to get a charge up.

// Player scramble sort mode.
// 1 = Random
// 2 = Player Score
// 3 = Player Score Per Minute.
// 4 = Player Kill-Death Ratios
// 5 = Swap the top players on each team, controlled by gs_top_swaps
// 6 = Choose randomly one of the above sort modes.
// This controls how players get swapped during a scramble.
gs_sort_mode "3"

as I've explained, the most decisive factor here is the medics on the team. medics characteristically score the highest in the team, so option 5 could work; however, they also get the highest score per minute. score per minute is the better option because it can better identify newly-joined medics who haven't risen to the top yet, and it gives a better representation of who is making the most difference within that team.

// The number of players to swap during a top-swap scramble
gs_top_swaps "5"
(redundant)

// If set, it will scramble after a team wins X full rounds in a row
gs_winstreak "0"
definately don't want to touch this; a team that wins 'x' amount of rounds in a row isn't necesarily a team that steamrolled every one of those rounds.

// If set, it will scramble every X full rounds
gs_scramblerounds "0"

// If set, then it will block auto-scrambling from happening two rounds in a row.
// Also stops scrambles from being started if one has occured already during a round.
gs_no_sequential_scramble "0"

if the criteria is met for an auto-scramble, then it should just auto-scrambled; nothing should get in the way of that. assuming the system is working as elegantly as we like, that is.


// **************************
// *
// admin flag settings *
// *
// **************************
// ** if multiple flags specified, will work if client has just one of these flags


// Admin flags for scramble protection (if enabled)
gs_flags_scramble "ab"

// Admin flags for balance protection (if enabled)
gs_flags_balance "ab"

// Admin flags for team swap block protection (if enabled)
gs_flags_teamswap "bn"


// **************************
// *
// generic settings *
// *
// **************************

// Disable most of the frequent chat messages the plugin displays
gs_silent "0"

// Integrate into the sourcemod admin menu
gs_admin_menu "1"
up to you guys what to want to do with this.

// Enable the mp_forceautoteam command and block people from using the 'jointeam' and 'spectate commands
gs_block_jointeam "0"

// Sets if admins set by 'gs_flags_teamswap' are immune from team swap blocking
gs_teamswitch_immune "1"
this is pretty badly worded; it hasn't explained anywhere what the difference between teamswap and scramble is. anyone? :p

// Punish clients trying to restack teams during the team-switch block period by adding time to when they are able to team swap again
gs_punish_stackers "0"

// Time after being swapped by a balance or scramble where players aren't allowed to change teams
gs_changeblocktime "0"
stopping people from choosing between RED and BLU seems a bit silly; most of the time it's for perfectly harmless reasons (want to be on the same side as their friend, say) and one person shouldn't make too much difference. unless it's a medic... :(

// The plugin will check if people are reconnecting to the server to avoid being forced on a team. Requires clientprefs
gs_check_reconnect "0"
seems a bit silly/pointless.

// Allow clients to choose buddies so that the plugin will try to auto-balance them together,
// and not scramble buddies who are on the same team
gs_use_buddy_system "0"
again, if people want to be on the same team as someone, then we should just not stop them in the first place. picking buddies is overly complicated.

// If set, block client changes to spectator that result in a team imbalance
gs_prevent_spec_imbalance "0"


// **************************
// *
// voting settings *
// *
// **************************

// How often, in seconds, to advertise the vote-scramble command
// 0 = Disabled
gs_vote_advertise "500"
i'll leave this one up to you too; if you want it, you already know the timing for the other server messages that come up in chatbox.

// String clients type in chat to trigger a vote
gs_vote_trigger "votescramble"
maybe !votescramble ?

// If set, publicly started votes are disabled when an admin is preset.
gs_vote_adminblock "0"

// 0 will trigger scramble for round end.
// 1 will scramble teams after vote.
gs_menu_votebehavior "1"
makes most sense and solves the problem quickest. unless people start spamming 'votescramble', but i think we can trust ourselves to not be that stupid. there were a few options further back to remedy it if that does, for some reason, become a problem.

// Percentage of votes for the menu vote scramble needed.
gs_menu_votesneeded "0"
we don't want a menu up; just that if enough people votescramble, teams will be scrambled, simple as.

// Enable/disable public voting
gs_public_votes "1"

// If this many seconds or less is left on the round timer, then block public voting.
gs_public_roundtime "0"

// How to handle the final public vote if there are less that X seconds left in the round, specified by the roundtime cvar.
// 0 = block the final vote.
// 1 = Allow the vote and force a scramble for the next round regardless of any other setting.
gs_public_roundtime_blockmode "0"

// Percentage of people needing to trigger a scramble in chat. If using votemode 1, I suggest you set this lower than 50%
gs_public_triggers "0.40"
as most people aren't paying enough attention, 60 pecent is a bit steep. 40 percent means the vote is more likely to go through. again, this is fairly balanced assuming people don't abuse the system.


// For public chat votes
// 0 = if enough triggers, enable scramble for next round.
// 1 = if enough triggers, start menu vote to start a scramble
// 2 = scramble teams right after the last trigger.
gs_public_votemode "2"
is in line with similar options above.

// Time in seconds after the map has started and after a failed vote in which players can votescramble.
gs_vote_delay "60.0"
might be useful if people start to abuse votescramble. otherwise, no harm in leaving it as it is.

// Time in seconds after a successful scramble in which players can vote again.
gs_vote_delay2 "300"
see above, though 300 seconds might be a bit much. not that people tend to votescramble alot anyway.

// Minimum poeple connected before any voting will work.
gs_vote_minplayers "3"
(posting this without going back over it looking for typos and stuff so it might be messy for a while)

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2010, 19:43 
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is Wonder Woman (5950)
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This is my input, I've just copied in what I changed from the default and my reasons:
Code:
// Controls who is immune from auto-balance
// 0 = no immunity
// 1 = admins
// 2 = engies with buildings
// 3 = both admins and engies with buildings
gs_ab_immunity "2" //changed to 2 as requested by birdee

// How many of the top players to protect on each team from autobalance.
gs_ab_protect "2" //changed from 5 to 2, I think it would be more equal this way

// If teams become imbalanced by this many players, auto-force a balance
gs_ab_forcetrigger "3" //changed from 4 to 3 I think 4 is too much making one side very unevenly balanced

// If less than this amount of time (in seconds) is left in a round, stop auto-balancing.
// "0" will disable this function
gs_ab_timelimit "60" //changed from 0 to 60 no point auto balancing when it's so close to the end of time-up

// Time in seconds to protect a client from autobalance if they have recently captured a point, defended/touched intelligence, or destroyed a sentry.
// 0 = disabled
gs_teamwork_protect "120" //changed from 60 to 120 I think they should stay on the same team a little longer before being swopped

// If the average score difference for all players on each team is greater than this, then trigger a scramble.
// 0 = disables this check
gs_as_playerscore_avgdiff "0" //changed from 10.0 to 0 I think this should be disabled I don't think it should go off scores

// If a team has this many more dominations than the other team, then trigger a scramble.
// 0 = disables this check
gs_as_domination_diff "0" //changed from 5 to 0, again it shouldn't be about doms, even players with low scores can domm!

// Minimum people connected before scrambles are possible
gs_as_minplayers "20" //changed to 20 from 12 no point scrambling when you have less than 10 on each side

// Sets if admins and people with uber and engie buildings are immune from being scrambled.
// medics + enginneers are not immune during scrambles at the beginning of the round
// 0 = no immunity
// 1 = just admins
// 2 = charged medics + engineers with buildings
// 3 = admins + charged medics and engineers with buildings.
gs_scramble_immune "2" //changed to 2 from 0 as requested by birdee

// Player scramble sort mode.
// 1 = Random
// 2 = Player Score
// 3 = Player Score Per Minute.
// 4 = Player Kill-Death Ratios
// 5 = Swap the top players on each team, controlled by gs_top_swaps
// 6 = Choose randomly one of the above sort modes.
// This controls how players get swapped during a scramble.
gs_sort_mode "3" //Definitly not random, we already know this doesn't work, so maybe try swopping by player score per minute.

// If set, it will scramble after a team wins X full rounds in a row
gs_winstreak "2" //changed from 0 to 2 Ithink 2 rounds is enough for the scramble to kick in

// Punish clients trying to restack teams during the team-switch block period by adding time to when they are able to team swap again
gs_punish_stackers "1" //enabled this for those that switch immediately back to their previous team

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ro 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2010, 20:20 
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Has no REAL life! (3017)
I don't understand why any top players from the teams should be immune. It could be very well that the reason for the steamroll is a medic+something combo that the opposition just can't neutralize.

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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2010, 20:21 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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which bit stops it working on payload maps? or.... :roll:

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nl 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2010, 20:24 
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Community slut (13473)
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You have to make out a config per map type.

So one for 5 cap CP maps, 1 for 2 cap multiple stage dustbowl alike maps, 1 for payload maps etc etc etc.


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pl 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2010, 20:24 
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Has no REAL life! (1715)
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Good Medic+Heavy combo ( Teb+Dav anyone ? :wink: ) can have 3-4x more points than everybody else and rape the fuck out of everyone.


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2010, 19:58 
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Has no REAL life! (3493)
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right. looking everything over, made up some good-to-go plugins, by map type. took on board some of Anna's stuff, unless it was for the autobalancer bit (which we aren't using anyway) or i'd made an argument against it in my last post (think it was mainly punishstackers and winstreak). but we can change all of that anyway D:


the main thing that changes is this:
Code:
// If a team wins in less time, in seconds, than this, and has a frag ratio greater than specified: perform an auto scramble.
// 0 = disables this check
gs_as_wintimelimit "[b]<150.0 for Control Point and CTF maps, 210.0 for goldrush and dustbowl, 330.0 for other payload maps (badwater etc)[/b]"
those time might be a bit off, idk, we'll see how it plays out on balance. might want to tweak it a bit for gravelpit too.

and stuff i don't really know what to do with, mostly aesthetic stuff:
Control Point Maps and CTF Maps

Goldrush and Dustbowl
Other Payload Maps

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pl 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2010, 00:55 
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Has no REAL life! (1715)
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Sooooo will it return ? We had some dreadful rounds on most 5cp maps really, and those really need scrambler of some sort.


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2010, 11:37 
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Has no REAL life! (3493)
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if they go with those configs, sometime soon.

i might make up a new config for goldrush/dustbowl; and the moment, it's set to scramble only when the round ends. but we all know that a team can get there ass kicked on either of those maps for a long time before the round ends. it would mean setting less extreme parameters, and having teams being balanced whenever these are hits - it'll be more dynamic, but very, very hard to balance. so it might be more trouble than it's worth :p

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ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: till you're senseless


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2010, 11:45 
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is Wonder Woman (5950)
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Yeah I reckon stick them in now then at least we can see how it works and get some feedback from the players. We could get them to post their thoughts on this forum and go from there.

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dk 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 07 Aug 2010, 13:27 
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Likes to type... (290)
get it on! please...


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dk 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 07 Aug 2010, 18:22 
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oh great - the author of the gscramble plugin is putting it to rest for a while
Code:
gScramble, a Comprehensive Team Manager for TF2
not going to be supporting this for a while, best move it to unapproved
http://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?t=89136


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 07 Aug 2010, 22:54 
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the majority of all the games today were massively stacked. any chance we can get an eta on this, even if its just prototype?

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pl 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 07 Aug 2010, 22:56 
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Has no REAL life! (1715)
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Ye most rounds looked like this :/
Image

Also can you bring back winlimit ? Yesterday on plr_hightower we reached score of like 1:8.


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 16 Aug 2010, 16:12 
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Kinda hopeless, but improving (122)
Is it possible to have a scrambler that interacts with the high scores system? The amount of times I see people hanging around in spectate to join a good team.


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 16 Aug 2010, 16:29 
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Has no REAL life! (8841)
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I've mentioned this as one of the main reasons are servers can die, or become a bother to play on.

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-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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dk 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2010, 16:55 
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ait lets activate this again yeah? it cant get any worse tbh


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2010, 19:39 
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We need it bad, its too much responsibility for admins to be constantly manually tweaking the teams. Let the machines do it. :twisted:

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-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."


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gb 
 Post subject: Re: Scramble
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2010, 03:38 
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Lord of Minecraft (2894)
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[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote:
We need it bad, its too much responsibility for admins to be constantly manually tweaking the teams. Let the machines do it. :twisted:
You're right of course, but I do worry about reimplementing it. The amount of snot-nosed whining we have about teams being unfair right now when in fact the issue is that one team is just dammed lazy is astonishing. Scramble can fix things on those rare occasions when everyone is on-board and playing well but 4 or 5 players on one team are just "that" much better than the rest, but most of the time it will simply change who has to carry the lazy bums.

As a possible related aside: could we not simply disable the choice of team when you join? Is it possible to have an enforced Random selection. If so I cannot really see a downside to doing so.

_________________
"Fire rained from the sky on the day I was born: 10,000 lives I ended before drawing first breath. Do not speak to me of guilt or regret, Jonathan.” - Brayan, The Keepers of the Fire


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