I wish something as simple as this awesome cartoon would get through the thick as skulls of the republicans in the USA and the idiots in Sweden and the UK...

..but even when something is designed for their cognitive abilities it will still probably be confused.

I hope the Assange case exposes some more political bullshit, and i love how if anything happens in this case that is fishy, its instantly recognised as disgusting government cover up bullshit... I also hope someone kicks Sarah Palin really hard in the baby maker for being such a dumb Cu........................................................ Yes darlin, Assange is the same as al qaeda... bint.

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-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

Well - to be honest what Assange does is hardly covered under free press... He divulged secret documents - I bet they were marked as classified or confidential wherever he got them from.
OH NOES, COUNTRIES HAVE SECRETS. Big fucking whoop! Nobody knew! And in diplomacy you sometimes say one thing but think another! NO WAI! The thing about secrets though is that they should remain secrets - imagine if everything was public. You say something to a friend and the next day it's plastered in every newspaper. It's retarded.
And if somebody thinks that America said "not very nice things" about certain countries or politicians - diplomats have to be HONEST in their reports. Somebody has to straight up say what he/she thinks about a certain person without all the political correctness since important decisions will be made by people not having such a close contact with the given countries/politicians based on that opinion.

Anyways - I for my part don't think what Assange is doing is right in any shape or form. It's stirring shit with a stick for no purpose whatsoever - it can just negatively influence international relations by openly shitting on the way diplomacy has been working for hundreds if not thousands of years.

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

Lim if people want to keep something a secret, don't write it down.

It's the job of the journalist to keep the government in check, and not the other way around.
Plus, how do you think ANY news story is found, sure some come from press releases, but what about all those hard working journalists who have uncovered corruption throughout history, they have secret sources and are accessing confidential or leaked documents. It happens all the time. The only reason this issue has happened is because WikiLeaks is an easy target, its new, the mass majority of the public have never heard of it,.. you don't see Sweden trying to press charges of rape against The Guardian newspaper for example, who published the cables as well,... why aren't they taking the heat? Is it because they are a well established paper that has been around a hell of a lot longer than wikileaks.

Also, i don't think this discussion should stay on this thread.

ON TOPIC! :

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-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

Well - you have to write stuff like this down - you can't expect i.e. ministers to talk to each of their ambassadors directly. They would be on the phone 24/7. ;-)
It's also not about keeping a government in check - these weren't policies that affect some citizens, these were government secrets. It's like posting the launch codes to Russia's nukes on the Internet... "Hey, the government has access to that, then EVERYBODY should have access to that!"
It's a very naive notion that giving knowledge to the public does any good - what it leads to is anarchy and nothing else. There are certain things that the public is just too stupid to process - as evidenced in this case for example!

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

Yeah but the cables didn't contain launch codes (would any journalist or paper publish that... NO),, who really shot JFK, and how many aliens still live at Area 51 or effected the public in anyway fair enough if fucking idiot politicians want to write down how the china smells or the Italians cant cook pasta, and the British Royal Family fart too much, then do it, but dont kick off at the guy who leaks and publishes it because its embarrassing to you, then lie and say its gonna endanger the lives of troops out in afganistan, because that is bullshit. Do you think the leak of that video showing the US slaughtering a bunch of innocent journalists and civilians in Iraq (?) in a helicopter shouldn't have been leaked, should the government and military just get away with that and carry on being incompetent.
yes i agree the majority of the human race is stupid, but its a vary naive notion thinking that giving knowledge to the public will lead to anarchy. Case in point, no anarchy has happened on release of these cables so far... unless i missed something?! hmmm but when our government TOLD the public they were planning on increasing student fees, then we got riots, protests and anarchy - Lim, that is called an argumentative point.

Enjoy living in 1984 Lim.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

I think a new thread for this discussion would be a good idea, guys.

Yeah, I fucking said that already, but the argumentative bastard doesn't ever read people entire posts, he must be getting reading tips from Pandorum.
And also, i dont know how to split up threads

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-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

Oh, right - the "he doesn't read people's posts" argument - so we're going into (speculative!) ad-hominem territory already? ;-)

Anyways - right - it doesn't contain any VITAL information but if it's so irrelevant, then why publish it at all? Like I said - it's stirring shit with a stick for no reason. And these notes DO affect international relations and these, in turn, can affect the fate of certain people.

Let's say you think your boss is a total asshole and you talk about it in mails with your friends. How would you feel if these mails were all of the sudden forwarded to your boss and you and your friends were fired from work?
This is a fitting analogy, IMHO. There are PRIVATE conversations and there are PUBLIC ones. Diplomatic cables are exactly these kind of "conversations" - private ones, that is, only on a global scale.

And the best part is - all the countries being butthurt about what the US "think of them" have EXACTLY the same kind of cables relating to the US. If all of this would go public there simply wouldn't be ANY diplomacy in the world at all - you can't always say what you think - that's not how communication between humans on any level works.
I wasn't saying that in relation to the cables - I was applying this to the general principle of disclosing confidential data if you re-read my post. (And I'm the one not reading them?)

_________________
War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

I wish whoever split this thread kept the original image too.... makes the first post nonsensical.


I'm still waiting to hear who's fates are going to be effected by this exactly... i should really get a magazine.


"It's a very naive notion that giving knowledge to the public does any good - what it leads to is anarchy and nothing else. There are certain things that the public is just too stupid to process - as evidenced in this case for example!"

"the general principle of disclosing confidential data "

bollox. just anarchy. what is wrong with anarchy? Anarchy can be a good thing, and throughout history, people have always challenged their government, sometimes with blood. People should not be afraid of their governments. The government is just scared some embarrassing story will come out that makes them look like the incompetent, bureaucratic, overpaid, corrupt, out of touch, blue blood, fuck noses.

These cables DO server an important purpose, for showing how our hired officials AND country ambassadors behave and conduct themselves.

Also, I'm not dumb enough to use official materials or use an official media to slag off my crap boss behind his back, because i don't CONTROL the material the words are printed on, thus how can it EVER be confidential. It's common sense, and their own fault for the leaks.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

What I find quite funny about that is, me and Balls sat and had a conversation in the pub, and I distinctly remember him slagging off his crap Boss.

did i write it down thou

OMG MOIST YOU JUST KILLED 500 INNOCENT AMERICAN SOLDIERS IN IRAQYSTAN! YOU ARE WORSE THAN AL QAEDA!

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-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

Send him (the boss) an email then! I'm sure ProtectMyBalls will appreciate it in the name of freedom of information. ;-)
Really, you are trying to draw the non-existent distinction between saying something or writing something down? I already pointed out how it's impossible to exchange information in politics solely by word of mouth. That's why you label the things you HAVE to write down as confidential or classified.

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

yeah, he would need something resembling proof, brainiac, that's what a source is.

Otherwise its just a Scottish guy someone a TINY LITTLE DINOSAUR ARMS from someone else.

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-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

It's not about proof. It's about the concept of disclosing information - don't use strawman arguments. Fine - let's assume he had a voice recorder.
Well, you'd then say that McMoist would have to be a complete asshole to record your private conversations and forward them to your boss. And hey! That's exactly what's happening in the world right now. Diplomats TRUSTED that the cables wouldn't get out - now this trust is tainted. You probably wouldn't want to talk to McMoist again if you knew AFTERWARD that he is recording your private convos and sending them to your boss, would you?
Now the diplomatic relations of some countries with the US are ALSO strained because of the whole Wikileaks incident.
How did the cables make people less afraid of governments? They only served DIPLOMATIC purposes.
Oh really? If you didn't know how they behaved before the cables were released than you must have been living under a rock since, well, since you were born. Everybody knows that diplomats aren't thinking what they are saying BUT international relations rely on people acting what is being said, not what is being thought. By disclosing the cables you are disclosing what people are THINKING and by the sole fact of releasing this info it all of the sudden BECOMES relevant internationally.
Let's say you're a US ambassador in an unstable country. For the sake of keeping relations healthy you obviously were nice to the locals even though they were fanatical morons - which you informed the US government about because decisions have to be made based on how things really are. Now your notes are disclosed. Do you think this guy will be safe in that country? How many American flags have been burnt already because of Wikileaks? It's stirring up nothing but hate for no particular reason other than some lofty ideals that could only be upheld in a perfect world.
Past Wikileaks, uhm, leaks were completely different to this one - they were about things the government didn't want people to know but which were cases where these cover-ups actually affected individual people and families and involved the possible stretching or breaking the laws by the government. No laws were broken by the US government in this case - other than saying what you think.

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

So moist is recording me secretly? because that is a little bit different than writing a report to a colleague then later that report is leaked by someone else. And by a little bit different i mean fucking night and day different.
Don't blame wikileaks for that, the US has always had strained relationships with other cuntries; its because they invade other fucking cuntries.
Don't use... shit analogies that are flawed to begin with.

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-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

Uhm, how, when it comes to the general concept?
Yes, but some Australian moron doesn't have to add fire to that. How much easier is it for fanatical demagogues to recruit, dunno, suicide bombers when they can point the finger at the news and say "see, Americans really do think we are stinking ragheads, now go and kill these American tourist family".

Name ONE good thing that has come out or COULD come out of the leak. I can't think of any - even IF all the potentially bad things don't happen.
OK, I think this pointless discussion is over, I said what I wanted and you seem to running out of non-insulting arguments.

_________________
War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXTx2y5Z3HM&NR=1[/youtube]

Because it's not the same concept.



Well firstly, it was an American who leaked the documents and he is currently rotting in solitary confinement for that right this fucking second.

I'll give you two;

1. Proves Paypal, Visa, and Mastercard of being instruments of US foreign policy.

2. The US government are now going to tighten up links to stop cables being leaked again. That will make you happy Lim im sure.

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

From a strictly research orientated point of view, the cables released by Wikileaks give alot alot alot of information on modern American diplomacy and foreign policy shapings, which is a good thing in my eyes. They don't expressly discern actual policy, rather the views and reports of ambassadors which would influence policy, and tbh I don't see too many embassies stormed and destroyed since the release...

lol Bruce Wayne shouldn't have emailed his mate about his identity ^^

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

The art of diplomacy is thinking one thing presenting another, internal cables have to reflect the agents (not spy agent of the government, ambassador, state officials) true feelings and findings otherwise having an embassy would be pointless to the country of origin.

While the cables are embarrassing for the US the broader issue is about accountability of governments, some of the leaks will help the US some wont. The fact that almost every Islamic nation that decried American involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq asked for intervention in Iran, proof for all the neigh sayers and doom mongers that the Islamic world isn't what the Republican right would have us believe only helps strengthen US policy in the area. On the flip side the US and the UK started wars and threaten sanction based on leaders stealing money from citizens then demanding aid, yet they've failed to intervene in anyway with Omar al-Bashir stealing 9Billion, if the original reasons given for intervention are true why hesitate over Sudan? Its in cases like this where the governments have lied and mislead that these documents are vital. Anyone taking the time to trawl through them is hardly likely to riot, and that's probably also the reason that the stupid and embarrassing stuff got released too, why would wikileaks edit this stuff when the newspapers will do that for them?

From an English point of view knowing that your government thinks so little of you to describe you as "we let in a lot of crazies and did not wake up early enough" is one thing, we've known that's how politics works for a long time but having proof is invaluable or even better in what the politicians described as a constitutional crisis for the UK the British government promised to protect US interests during the Chilcot inquiry into the Iraq war, what protects the US must also protect the UK strange that the Chilcot enquiry felt neutered isn't it?

The point is we're told we live in democratic societies but for democracy to work the government has to be open and accountable to its people, western democracies aren't and if these cables have any real impact its to smash that wall of secrecy they've been building and make the governments account for themselves which, when they get past attacking Assange, they may finally have to do.

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awesome read cardboard, smashed it!

_________________
-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

Totally agree..the cables already showed the dirty and hidden face of governments from so called democratic free countries.