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The Map Rotation https://forum.specialattack.net/viewtopic.php?t=9871 |
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Author: | [SpA]Howard [ 16 Mar 2011, 00:30 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
Amyl, I think you make a very good point. While we should strive to fill the servers, if we must sacrifice our own enjoyment of the game and drastically limit the rotation so as to include only those few maps that most people are happy to play on then we are probably doing it wrong. Trouble is, what is the alternative? (I'm really asking here!) TF2 is an old and arguably dying game (yes dying for a long while now, but the herd of players is undoubtedly thinning even more of late) so keeping a consistent enough player base that we can justify the cost of the servers is only going to get harder. Removing maps from the rotation is quite probably a very bad thing to do. Molly-codling the community and making it so that people don't have to play any map they don't fancy right at the moment will just lead to a lazier and more demanding community. Problem is they are not exactly beating down the door to come play with us so it is not like we can lay the law down too hard either. I don't know: I really don't. It is going to be a tough needle to thread this; keeping the servers as full as possible while not kowtowing to every whimsy of the players. Unless something happens to suddenly reinvigorate the TF2 community at large then this situation will only worsen. For now, though, I think we have to encourage the players we know we have, and if that means relegating the less popular maps to the SpA Points menu, then so be it. (EDIT: Ugh. just noticed that I used a lot of archaic terms and phrases in that post. That'll teach me to post stuff when taking a break halfway through a fairly heavy chapter. yell at me if the above doesn't make sense... ) |
Author: | ProtectMyBalls [ 16 Mar 2011, 00:42 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
I really don't see much benefit in making the servers that much different, if one is empty most of the time. |
Author: | Greasy_greabo [ 16 Mar 2011, 04:30 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
By having fewer maps (albiet good or bad) people will bore of the game quicker. Or so logic dictates. Now obviously it's flawed as we are talking of a few hours play at a time; but in the longer scheme of things, we will keep a player playing for longer overall by having more options than by thinning out the options. That said, most CS servers survived on 24/7 aztec/dust/dust 2/office. Or on fat mods like UWC3 or Wc3/ gungame etc. Perhaps just make 1 server a normal server with all the trimming and all the options (except crits) and 1 a critz 24 hour 3-4 map rotation server (or even just 1 map) /2cents |
Author: | Crovax20 [ 16 Mar 2011, 09:28 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
no |
Author: | ProtectMyBalls [ 16 Mar 2011, 09:45 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]Greasy_greabo wrote: By having fewer maps (albiet good or bad) people will bore of the game quicker. Or so logic dictates.
The current rotation has been boiled down over the last 8 or so months to what I have recognised my monitoring player feedback and how the numbers react, to a decent selection of maps which are all reasonably popular and will always maintain a larger majority of players. To mix up this rotation, spa members then use spapoints to pick other maps to break the cycle and inject some variation. If we have all maps then the amount of spapoints used to buy maps will decrease significantly. Case and point; we put the new version of Yukon onto rotation a month or two ago, and people were fine with it for a week because it was new and shiny; but after a week, the minute it came on numbers would drop, because it wasn't a well loved map by the mass majority. We should really cater for our player base, and not ourselves because they are the ones filling our servers, and not SpA. Speaking as someone who is on it pretty much every evening for a good few hours, there are only approximately 3-4 spa members who join in a 5 hour period. Now obviously it's flawed as we are talking of a few hours play at a time; but in the longer scheme of things, we will keep a player playing for longer overall by having more options than by thinning out the options. That said, most CS servers survived on 24/7 aztec/dust/dust 2/office. Or on fat mods like UWC3 or Wc3/ gungame etc. Perhaps just make 1 server a normal server with all the trimming and all the options (except crits) and 1 a critz 24 hour 3-4 map rotation server (or even just 1 map) /2cents If you want more variation, it could be suggestible to just add more maps to the spapoints night and day lists, or just have one list. /2cents |
Author: | [SpA]Howard [ 16 Mar 2011, 10:20 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
This argument is becoming circular and people are just turning up to reiterate exactly what has already been said. We all agree we need to attract players but we also have to accept that the number of available players is limited. The issue is that reducing the number of maps too far will have exactly the same effect of driving players away. Making the rotation small and putting the rest in the points menu is a good idea, but only if we do not take it too far. Most people don't bother to buy maps and those that do tend to buy the same obvious choices over and over. More over there is categorically a line between giving the community the things it wants and allowing the community to dictate what happens. Saint understands this well enough and has not been pushed around by the community before. We need to work to promote new maps and make people give them a chance. People are too quick to assume that because they had a bad game on the map, it was the maps fault. This is very rarely the case. Final point - too many voices in these threads are those that do not play the damned game any more. Sorry and all but having been a regular on ours or any other server in the past means fuck all right here right now. Things change and unless you understand what is currently driving the game and its community then feel free to butt out |
Author: | [SpA]SaintK [ 16 Mar 2011, 10:32 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
anna and me will run through the entire mapcycle, spapoints etc etc. soon. We just need some time (bit busy with me house move). |
Author: | ProtectMyBalls [ 16 Mar 2011, 10:40 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]Howard wrote: Making the rotation small and putting the rest in the points menu is a good idea, but only if we do not take it too far. Most people don't bother to buy maps and those that do tend to buy the same obvious choices over and over.
But the rotation is small atm![SpA]Howard wrote: Final point - too many voices in these threads are those that do not play the damned game any more. Sorry and all but having been a regular on ours or any other server in the past means fuck all right here right now. Things change and unless you understand what is currently driving the game and its community then feel free to butt out
Couldn't agree more.
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Author: | [SpA]Howard [ 16 Mar 2011, 10:52 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote: [SpA]Howard wrote: Making the rotation small and putting the rest in the points menu is a good idea, but only if we do not take it too far. Most people don't bother to buy maps and those that do tend to buy the same obvious choices over and over.
But the rotation is small atm?Ok, making it smaller then . I phrased that badly as its not really what I meant. I essentially think there are maps that should be ditched is all and I am probably over-selling my personal preference. Simple fact is that the maps I listed way back in the mists of time at the start of this thread can kill the server stone dead. The problem is that this is not always true. Last night for example everyone bitched and moaned that I picked (albeit accidentally) Freight from the points menu, but screw me if everyone didn't stick around and have a bloody good game. The idea of this thread was to instigate a review of the current rotation, something I have already achieved. Beyond that, though, we really need to be more brave and put some other maps out there. Playing the same tired crap over and over again will drive people away just as easily as a bad map in the rotation. |
Author: | ProtectMyBalls [ 16 Mar 2011, 11:02 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]Howard wrote: [SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote: But the rotation is small atm? Ok, making it smaller then . I phrased that badly as its not really what I meant. I essentially think there are maps that should be ditched is all and I am probably over-selling my personal preference. Simple fact is that the maps I listed way back in the mists of time at the start of this thread can kill the server stone dead. The problem is that this is not always true. Last night for example everyone bitched and moaned that I picked (albeit accidentally) Freight from the points menu, but screw me if everyone didn't stick around and have a bloody good game. The idea of this thread was to instigate a review of the current rotation, something I have already achieved. Beyond that, though, we really need to be more brave and put some other maps out there. Playing the same tired crap over and over again will drive people away just as easily as a bad map in the rotation. side note, is that the current freight? im just concerned people will be downloading the old one :S |
Author: | [SpA]Howard [ 16 Mar 2011, 11:08 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote: [SpA]Howard wrote: Ok, making it smaller then . I phrased that badly as its not really what I meant. I essentially think there are maps that should be ditched is all and I am probably over-selling my personal preference. Simple fact is that the maps I listed way back in the mists of time at the start of this thread can kill the server stone dead. The problem is that this is not always true. Last night for example everyone bitched and moaned that I picked (albeit accidentally) Freight from the points menu, but screw me if everyone didn't stick around and have a bloody good game. The idea of this thread was to instigate a review of the current rotation, something I have already achieved. Beyond that, though, we really need to be more brave and put some other maps out there. Playing the same tired crap over and over again will drive people away just as easily as a bad map in the rotation. [SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote: side note, is that the current freight? im just concerned people will be downloading the old one :S
Nope, it's still the old version. This was mentioned a long while ago (when we played it in Beta Bunnies) but nothing changed.
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Author: | [SpA]Dekar [ 16 Mar 2011, 11:17 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
So when will you finally add map voting at the end of a round? |
Author: | ProtectMyBalls [ 16 Mar 2011, 11:25 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
Dekar wrote: So when will you finally add map voting at the end of a round?
not a terrible suggestion; but i don't think we are allowed voting systems, but it would allow the server base to control their own sessions.
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Author: | [SpA]Howard [ 16 Mar 2011, 11:26 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
Dekar wrote: So when will you finally add map voting at the end of a round?
Depends how it would be configured. If it means we get the same dammed map 17 times an hour then I hope we never implement it. If it can be sorted so that we get a good variation of maps then I'm all for it. (I've seen it work on other servers well enough so I don't see why it shouldn't be considered.)
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Author: | [SpA]SaintK [ 16 Mar 2011, 11:29 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
Dekar wrote: So when will you finally add map voting at the end of a round?
Never.
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Author: | [SpA]Howard [ 16 Mar 2011, 11:32 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]SaintK wrote: Dekar wrote: So when will you finally add map voting at the end of a round?
Never. |
Author: | ProtectMyBalls [ 16 Mar 2011, 11:35 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]Howard wrote: Dekar wrote: So when will you finally add map voting at the end of a round?
Depends how it would be configured. If it means we get the same dammed map 17 times an hour then I hope we never implement it. If it can be sorted so that we get a good variation of maps then I'm all for it. (I've seen it work on other servers well enough so I don't see why it shouldn't be considered.)Quote: I gotta ask: why? If it takes the strain out of running the server then what is the harm?
i think it means people wont use spapoints to change the map
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Author: | [SpA]Howard [ 16 Mar 2011, 11:39 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote: Quote: I gotta ask: why? If it takes the strain out of running the server then what is the harm?
i think it means people wont use spapoints to change the map |
Author: | [SpA]SaintK [ 16 Mar 2011, 11:43 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
I'm against any form of re-occurring votes at the servers, it's the most annoying thing ever and won't ever get used or implemented at spa servers. |
Author: | [SpA]Howard [ 16 Mar 2011, 11:48 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]SaintK wrote: I'm against any form of re-occurring votes at the servers, it's the most annoying thing ever and won't ever get used or implemented at spa servers.
Fair enough and I respect your opinion, although I disagree with it, and not to stick my head in the lions mouth but I feel I should point out the obvious: you don't play TF2 any more, mate, so why would you care that much?
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Author: | ProtectMyBalls [ 16 Mar 2011, 11:48 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]Howard wrote: [SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote: i think it means people wont use spapoints to change the map |
Author: | [SpA]Howard [ 16 Mar 2011, 11:49 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote: [SpA]Howard wrote: Unless we used the SpA points to power the voting system, as in it takes 5 SpA points to cast a vote? |
Author: | [SpA]SaintK [ 16 Mar 2011, 11:51 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]Howard wrote: [SpA]SaintK wrote: I'm against any form of re-occurring votes at the servers, it's the most annoying thing ever and won't ever get used or implemented at spa servers.
Fair enough and I respect your opinion, although I disagree with it, and not to stick my head in the lions mouth but I feel I should point out the obvious: you don't play TF2 any more, mate, so why would you care that much?And I care because I run this community partly based off my own vision, regardless if I play the game or not. (Most games we have hosted I have not owned or barely played, compared to the rest). |
Author: | ProtectMyBalls [ 16 Mar 2011, 11:52 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]Howard wrote: [SpA]ProtectMyBalls wrote: hmm, maybe, but you gotta remember that a good percentage of the people on the server are casual players and wont know of the spapoints system or be signed up, which will mean only a small percent will be able to vote. |
Author: | [SpA]Howard [ 16 Mar 2011, 11:53 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]SaintK wrote: [SpA]Howard wrote: Fair enough and I respect your opinion, although I disagree with it, and not to stick my head in the lions mouth but I feel I should point out the obvious: you don't play TF2 any more, mate, so why would you care that much? And I care because I run this community partly based off my own vision, regardless if I play the game or not. (Most games we have hosted I have not owned or barely played, compared to the rest). And again, that is fair enough. I just think it is a shame to reject an option that could help in our current situation, but I understand your position. Consider the subject dropped. |
Author: | [SpA]SaintK [ 16 Mar 2011, 12:00 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]Howard wrote: [SpA]SaintK wrote: I never play games too much. And I care because I run this community partly based off my own vision, regardless if I play the game or not. (Most games we have hosted I have not owned or barely played, compared to the rest). And again, that is fair enough. I just think it is a shame to reject an option that could help in our current situation, but I understand your position. Consider the subject dropped. |
Author: | Crovax20 [ 16 Mar 2011, 12:39 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
He means "hate" btw. |
Author: | [SpA]SaintK [ 16 Mar 2011, 12:46 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]Crovax20 wrote: He means "hate" btw.
Oups, corrected
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Author: | annarack [ 16 Mar 2011, 15:35 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
There are some good ideas forming here. When I have more time, i.e. not at work, I will note down the good ideas. Once saintK and I have some spare time we shall see what we can do to get these ideas rolling. May I suggest that whatever we do that we give it a trial of a few weeks or so and then report back as to whether it was a +ve or a -ve. |
Author: | ProtectMyBalls [ 16 Mar 2011, 15:50 ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Map Rotation |
[SpA]annarack wrote: There are some good ideas forming here. When I have more time, i.e. not at work, I will note down the good ideas. Once saintK and I have some spare time we shall see what we can do to get these ideas rolling.
Sounds good to me, may suggest though that we report back after 1 week of live testing, just because i really dont want to go through that long process of inviting people back again and creating fill teams again if there are issues that drive away the player base. May I suggest that whatever we do that we give it a trial of a few weeks or so and then report back as to whether it was a +ve or a -ve. Look forward to seeing the proposed solution |
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