Oh, I wasn't challenging the fact that dragon age origins is an RPG, I just didn't enjoy the game. I knew we were going to have a bad relationship the second it put me in control of two elves and had me pointing and clicking my way through a top down dungeon.
Mass Effect allows for some character development, true, but it has more in common with a shooter than a classic RPG. Sure, it has the renegade thing, but simply deciding if your character is a goody two shoes or an asshole isn't really role-playing. It's part of it, sure, but the fact that the game has that much more audio doesn't really draw me in. I only felt that I was playing anything remotely like an RPG when dialogue choices came up anyway, hence the comparison to the IS.
I'm not saying that mainstream developers are incapable of writing good games. I just find that the indie games we're seeing now are more unique and engaging. To each his own, I suppose. When it comes to RPGs, there really is no substitute for a tabletop game with a good human GM adapting to your choices. When you flesh out a character with your own back story, motivation, style, etc, its much more rewarding than deciding between "No" and "Hell no" could ever be.
You missed my point. Then you agreed with it completely and you then still tried to redifine RPG as something its not all the while agreeing with me.
You're using computer gaming terminology to define what an RPG is and you can't. A shooter can be an RPG because shooter is a game mechanic RPG is a clearly defined term outside of computing. Once more RPG is about role play, defining and building a role within a set universe. That can mean any game mechanic can be applied to it: puzzle, shooter, platform so on. Like table top RPG's are not defined by cards, dice or turns; defining games by their mechanics does nothing but stifle the industry. I notice this more and more in lazy gaming journalism and it causes huge problems where multiple game mechanics are used; for example Deus Ex and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlineswhich had 1000's of definitions in media, ranging from Shooter to RPG to Adventure to Sci-Fi and Vampire-RPG-Action-Adventure-Shooter.
I'm interested to know what a traditional RPG is btw because if you say high fantasy or sword and sorcery, I'll kill myself and if you say turn based or stat management I'll make it my life's aim to kill you.
As for writing good games, I meant the writing specifically: the plot, the dialogue, the characters and so on not the code. Indie games have always been unique and interesting that's the only way they sell, but because people who can write good plots and characters generally don't code, indie games tend to rely on mechanics; a notable exception being Braid which was both well written and had interesting mechanics.
Your final point is why we both play minecraft, the stories are emergent they define themselves and we can impose any back story onto our character we want. The mainstream has to however provide narrative because narrative has been sold to the public since before the printing press; that's how most people understand and relate. When a game like DA or ME takes on the story telling tropes of some of the most complex fiction of our age and uses them seamlessly to tell a story that the mass market buys into how can you fail to be impressed? If I ever though people would intrinsically understand semiotics I'd be buying everyone I know a copy of Foucault's Pendulum.
Ollie: As for these games being aimed at someone younger, I think the complexity of the narrative structure has them aimed at someone older. Fallout played like Baldur's gate and was clearly and Fallout3 was just Oblivion with guns. So again an RPG can be an FPS and swords, sorcery, fantasy and stats are not RPG's.
There's to much to say on this subject and it crossing multiple subjects. we hadn't even got PC v's console which is why ME/Fallout ad Deus Ex 2 all felt of overly simple. Or that the first person shooter is an indie concept and the first person games were, before doom and before most of you were born, only seen in RPG's. You should look up some of the reasons that the fantasy setting was used too, your mind will be blown. Portal: indie concept tied to mass market writing, near perfect game.
Also I've been ranting about this lazy terminology for the last 12 years (nearly) since system shock 2 and frankly I'm tired. You can have your ill defined terminology , games that only adhere to one premise, and genres based on game mechanics not on the setting and I'll happily die playing Deus Ex, Shadow of the Colossus and yes Dwarf Fortress and you'll have to read about Vampire-RPG-Action-Adventure-Shooters forever more but I wont
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I take it all back. FFFFFFUUUUUU cardboard!!!!!
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