Ernst-Paul Hasselbach died last night in a trafic accident in norway, while making a dutch version of 71 Graden Noord.

the production assistent Leentje Custers, was also in the car while the accident happened, and shared the same fate as Ernst-Paul Hasselbach

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[SpA]Revenge "Wheres the element of surpise :/"

[SpA]Mint "IN.... MY....PANTS"

[SpA]Minimoose "Revenge is going to jump out of your pants?"

ah, a dutch tv presentor.

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M.A.S.K. , is the mighty power that can save the day

Is he? I got no clue who he is....


U know who died btw aswell yesterday? That Jorg Haider (spelled?) dude...

It's Jörg Haider
Really a shame for austrian politics, he was a good man, even though most european media only define him as 'right-wing populist'.

Hell no, he wasn't a good man. 0_o
He was a friggin' Nazi!

Quick Wikipedia snippet:
Uhm... These are HIS words, not some made-up media reports.

Sorry, as a Pole I have a low tolerance for people like this even though I have absolutely nothing against modern Austria or Germany. By the way - I met some Neonazis when I was a scout in Germany (they kind of infiltrated the organization) but that's a story for another day.

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

BS!

whutever he said or did back in the days (early 90's) is nothin in relation to a persons death...


the person jörg haider is definitly a loss for austrians politics...

could you comment on what is said about what he did or said? Did that happen? Cuz a man's made up by his actions as well in my opinion and if you've done actions like glorifying nazism, the waffen ss, etc. you're not such a good man in my book...
I ask cuz I really don't know, only heard little about bad things he had done or said in the media. For the rest, I've only been in Kaprun to ski That's all, never seen much from Die Schweiz politics

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M.A.S.K. , is the mighty power that can save the day

I agree with demm and wes. Someone like that is a loss for politics, like Pim fortuyn was in The Netherlands.
You don't have to agree with these persons but everyone should agree that they are a loss for the politics. If you can't your just short sighted.

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We Shall Not Be Moved!

Yeah well - if that's what they meant, OK - I'm also of the opinion that ALL political options should be represented in a country, that's what we call democracy. However, I'd be hard pressed to say that I shed any tears over Haider's death. I wouldn't call him a "great man" either - important, yes, great, nope.

Anyways, it's over and the dead should be left alone, I guess - peace be unto him whether he landed in heaven or in hell. ^^

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

Pim Fortuyn didn't say as much radical racistic bull as Geert Wilders does at this point. If Geert Wilders would in any way be out of politics, it'd surely not be a loss.
Janmaat was an asshole as well , who we got rid of and him getting out of politics was a win for politics.

I really have a hard time digging the fact someone could speak good of nazi germany, 2nd ww, etc. and meaning it. Praising the employment policies of Nazi Germany???
Is he talking about the employment of the weapon industry that cost 60 million ppl their lives? Is he talking about unpaid forced labour in a harsh environment?
Attending a memorial of the waffen SS, saying that they were soldiers and doing their job? Hitler was a leader and he did his job as well, does that make him a good man? Or a man to be forgiven? Or a man with no choice in killing all those jews?
To be honest, I can't dig any asshole yelling those things. We have a lot of them in the world, and what I see that happens from this, is major gathers of national socialistic right extremists. Ppl who think it's ok to tell other ppl they shouldn't be living cuz the color of their skin just turned out wrong. Ppl willing to bash someone else's head for the wonderful reason that they just don't like where they're coming from. For that matter, I can't dig footbal hooligans neither. Or ppl with guns looking for fights on party nights among your 15 year old daughter or son for instance.
If you want the attention and point ppl to some critical points in life/politics/leadership ideas, it's not necessary to say dumb ass things as nazis were only ppl as well, who just happened to make a different choice. When your choice leads, directly or indirectly, to another person's death, I don't think you have to glorify that at all. Certainly not if you know thousands of idiot extreme right assholes are gonna march, hand up high, calling out to Hitler due to the fact you give them some kind of idea of supporting their thoughts
If you have the stupid idea you can make a difference in politics, you could try and go for a bit smarter approach instead of getting attention in a simpleton's manner. If you're a role model, I don't think you should attract the attention in that way.
I'm not saying I know for a fact that Haider said those things, but reading those things worry me.
Don't need to make me aware, cuz believe me, I am very well aware of the goddamn fucked up shit going on in the world. Don't need another nazi glorifier to point me out what was great about 40-45 and what was nice about their "ways". Don't need another story teller to tell me how fucked up it was either, been thrown to death with that piece of history and next to that we play thousands of games or watch 100 of movies about it. Rather want someone who can fix our problems we have in life, now, instead of pointing out even worse solutions then our already bad problems.
I really can't stand KKK idiots trying to argue their points with the bible, or any other extremist trying to talk good about killing millions. There isn't any good in killing other ppl and we certainly don't deserve to live on this planet. Which we are doing a wonderful job of wiping ourselves off!
If you want to be a role model and try to figure out how we should live our lives, plz do so in a respectful, grown up manner... It's already bad as hell with this dude in the top of our parliament

Again,I'm not saying haider said or did such things, I'm just giving my opinion about some things I depicted above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Haider

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M.A.S.K. , is the mighty power that can save the day

Most of the time there were not many good words lost about Haider hereover in Germany, but it was quite quiet on him in the last months (or even years?) and I didn't even knew that he has died.

The circumstances of his death are...

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

car accident...

okay.. holy shite, I'm going to get unpopular right now by typing this.

as a bit of respons to lim-dul and bucky here, about the nazi's

uhm... yeah okay there's no good way to say this,
In my oppinion I think that a lot of the work the Nazi's did was pretty good, even the general idea of the idology is pretty good... just as communisme also is a general good idea, but sadly fails when it comes to practical use, now I'm not saying that what the nazis did was something to be proud of... truth being told it was rather horrible, BUT my point was that a lot of the inventions the germans did discover during the nazi period was groundbreaking and very valuable to the world society, take the tape recorder as an example, without that we would probably not have music as we know it today...

the germans did a lot of good things during the period (as they say in family guy) everyone was on vacation. research vise and people vise.

norway is a good example of it really, take the infrastructure here.. the germans rebuilt the entire infrastructire, roads, railways etc... and most of it per today is still there.. in fact we can thank the germans for our economy is what it is, without the economical boost and the infrastructure gain norway would probably be in poor state.

even the political view changed entirely and forced norway to take action militaryvise and politically. IF norway would have remained neutral during the second world conflict, we would probably not have been in afghanistan doing the good things we're doing now.. we would not have been in kosovo, we would not have used as much money as we do to help others.

take another country, Austria,
Austria also gained a lot from the germans, politicaly and economically, austria didn't loose as much from the Nazi defeat as some other countries did either.

Finland, the winterwar, no other country helped as much as Germany did to keep the USSR out. by supplying weapons and materials. even a lot of the officers voluntered and traveled to help, and eventually helped in the russian defeat.

my point being is that I don't think we should try to surpress the years 1939-1946 as many people have a tendency to do.

I got no clue why communist parties still are allowed while national socialistic parties aren't, had it not been because of racial hate in one leader, there would have been a good chance that Nazi-Germany would have been on the same side as the allies in the battle against the communists,

when we look at it stastically the russians did kill more civilians than the nazis did, and where do you think Hitler got the idea for work camps?
Russia still per today are etnical cleansing a lot of the areas of which they think rightfully belong to them, take ukraina, georgia, estland and latvia.

again I'm not saying that since someone did worse we should ignore what happened, but the fact is that without the Nazis we would not have nuclear power, and a lot of other things.

I do not think that the average german was a racist, but was just trying to make a living.
and I support the idea that a lot of the german soldiers should be glorified and celebrated as heroes. they did an amazing job, with usually long odds, and there's few stories per today that can live up to what a lot of the soldier did... even though the danish lost the napoleon war, we danish are still proud of what our soldiers did and think what they did was right.. although we might disagree a lot about what the government did, and handled things

so there it is... I agree with Haiders statements that seemed to imply support for some ideas of National Socialism although I do not support the racisme

to sum up, national socialisme is not a bad idea, but it got mixed with racisme and hatred from certain leaders. although a lot of bad things happened there came a lot of good out of it.

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[SpA]Revenge "Wheres the element of surpise :/"

[SpA]Mint "IN.... MY....PANTS"

[SpA]Minimoose "Revenge is going to jump out of your pants?"

All this went over the backs of ppl. Ppl died for those things to happen, got beaten to work, etc. There's nothing good about that.
Ppl always say that due to war we have many inventions, etc. Do you really think those things wouldn't have been invented if we wouldn't have wars at all? That's bull. Vice versa, if we wouldn't have faith, we still would have war, ppl would find other excuses to fight wars for. If we wouldn't have war, ppl would still invent. Inductive reasoning vs deductive reasoning, I know it's hard, but because all swans are white doesn't mean white paper is a swan! Think of the money saved we would still have. Look at America, what fucked up crisis they started with their fucked up war Nothing good came from that...
Maybe you can see what's happening now as employment, I see it as another Fuhrer making egocentric decisions on other ppls backs. It fucking damn well pisses me of. And yeah, talking about Bush here, mister nazi Hitler 2 (that goddamn motherfucker should be raped with a razorbladed baseball bat onto a drill up his rich ass fuhrer bum!) There's absolutely not one good reason why mr president of the us of a is having a war with countries like Iraq or Afghanistan.
I'm a firm believer of the ying yang theory, bit changed by some views of mine, but i believe everything has an as big down side as positive side, it only depends on the way you look at it. If you choose to look at ww2 as some funky ass period that brought so much good next to a little fucked up things it brought that's just plainly wrong. Everything, and I say everything, every fokkin good thing that came from that war, costed millions their lives, ppl got beaten for, ppl got put into camps for that, women/men got raped. Not much different then what's happening nowadays, only nowadays ppl in wars seem to have adapted a bit friendlier norms. Although shit still happens, look at the photos of soldiers that leaked out. You want to glorify that? Tell that to the jewish families who got their family killed/raped/beaten/etc., they won't understand ya for sure. Dude, step out of the box plz, if we wouldn't have war, the world of science would not stop!

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M.A.S.K. , is the mighty power that can save the day

Yeah... with more than 140 in a 70 zone.

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

well after a rather long msn discussion I think we can agree to disagree...
and agree on that we don't like bush at all

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[SpA]Revenge "Wheres the element of surpise :/"

[SpA]Mint "IN.... MY....PANTS"

[SpA]Minimoose "Revenge is going to jump out of your pants?"

We're still not done m8, get back on your e-msn!
We need to discuss how much beers and J's we're gonna assimilate

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M.A.S.K. , is the mighty power that can save the day

well, about haider and what he did for austrian politics:
when he joined his party, they had around 3% of the voters. the whole country was split up between the blacks (christian-social, now called peoples party) and the reds (socialists). those two parties had the whole country evenly divided between them and had a so called 'proportional representation election system', which basically meant, that no smaller party would be able to gain any amount of power.
this was a really bad system for anyone not belonging to either of the parties. if you wanted to work at any public office anywhere for the country, you needed to be party member.
because of haider (and of course some other people) we now have 5 parties in our parliament, which means more democracy and less cronyism.

about what he said:
i agree that he said some dumb things. but people that are so in rage about that stuff always concentrate on 2 sentences, that are nearly 20 years old and that they intentionally misinterpret.
of course he didn't talk about forced labor when he was talking about the employment policies of nazi germany. he meant stuff like building motorways and improving infrastructur, as a way for the country to employ people, instead of just leaving them unemployed.
haider also apologised for what he said many times now and he realised it was badly phrased.
so, he was a politician that said some dumb stuff in the past, but strangely enough the whole world knows him for that. as if he would be the only one. when he died there where reports of his death on every major news outlet (e.g. CNN, al jazeera, all german ones and all around europe) which is kinda strange. seems like everyone is afraid of a new hitler and expect him to be austrian. maybe they should just look at people like bush or putin and realise those two are about as close to hitler as it gets nowadays.

The last of his controversial quotations/actions are from 2000, by the way, and we probably didn't hear more because Haider more or less disappeared from the political scene - especially internationally.

As to Mint's analysis of the Nazi regime - whatever you say, mate, you have to remember that in Nazi Germany ideology and politics were inseparable. Hence you can't really judge any accomplishments on their own without keeping in mind that they lead to or were meant to cause millions and millions of deaths.

Speaking of which - I wonder what they teach you about WW II at school. I mean, Norway and Austria were Axis countries after all. :-P

Here in Poland we don't even have to rely wholly on schools for now - I can just listen to what my grandparents or my great grandmother told me. And let me tell you - these were not fun stories most of the time. A V2 missile killed about half of my great grandmother's family. Several members of my grandmother's family (well, my family) disappeared during the war (and she was imprisoned in a concentration camp for a short while) and my grandfather was a forced laborer in Germany.

I think your perspectives might be a bit slanted because you simply didn't hear all those first-hand accounts from the victim's side.

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

norway was an axis country? i think there's something I've missed then.. norway was as sweden, Neutral, they did not want any part in the war at all.. but due to the strategic placement of our lovely country, the allies was afraid the axis would use it as a base for launching attacks at britain, so the allies did what they thought was right, and prepared an invasion of scandinavia (not only norway but also sweden actually). the germans had at that point no desire to invade norway yet, but they had begun making plans for it, so when they found out the allies would invade norway , they had to get there before them, so the germans ended up invading norway about 2-3 days before the allies had planned to do the same. which ended with catastrophic actions from the allies side. they lost quite a few men.

norway never really got wholly conqured as they kept the resistance up. especially in the north, while being hard pressed by the russians on one side and the germans on another, thirdly, the allies was trying to "help" the newly conqured (how ironic as they had just planned to do the same).

anyway, my reasoning was not to start a discussion about who's a nazi or not, or that if they were right or not.. simply that I agree with that there was a couple of things that nazi germany did right. improving infrastructure, employment, birthrates. etc etc the list goes on...

I never said that the war was a good thing in the first place or that I agreed with the occupation of poland etc....

only that my oppinion is that a lot of germans did good things, while being under the Nazi regime.

take modern day as an example, I think most of us can agree that Bush haven't been good for U.S's reputation and his actions have been rather... irrational. BUT does it make all americans evil? does it mean that nothing good comes out of US because they invaded Iraq, and Afghanistan?
America is still world leading on many researches and host some of the worlds most brilliant minds.
but I think many people get blinded by the love of hating, or that it's popular instead of actually looking at other things than just the bad that happen.

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[SpA]Revenge "Wheres the element of surpise :/"

[SpA]Mint "IN.... MY....PANTS"

[SpA]Minimoose "Revenge is going to jump out of your pants?"

Norway was invaded by Germany and didn't seem to have too many problems with the occupation, going even as far as helping Germans with certain things. Vichy France comes to my mind immediately even though France obviously wasn't a true Axis country.
Read my previous post as to the cost of these "improvements" that were supposed to help the "ruling race" only anyway. -.-
Again I stress that you can't detach one from the other.

You can't say "Hitler murdered millions of people BUT he built many motorways in Germany" - the only thing you can say is "Hitler murdered millions AND he built many motorways in Germany" since both things were part of the same political ideology (especially since the motorways were being built for a purpose - enabling the army to move faster) - you either condemn Nazism as a whole or you approve it. The way Hitler "repaired" the country wouldn't have been possible if he hadn't found Jews as scapegoats to motivate his people etc. Nazism is a totalitarian regime concept AND an ideology and hence you can't judge certain aspects of it on their own since the interdependences are far more complex than that.

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

u guys, there is a difference between nazism and socialism.

The extremists, for example ; Waffen SS were young and no older then about 30 so they could show off their own ideals(Ubermensch shite, blond hair, blue eyes, strong, good built, jaw shape etc.) and these people were brainwashed(being young u can easily b manipulated).

The socialists: For example ; every day man in WW2 Germany. Most didnt even know that there were concentration camps etc.

The people who actually believed that germany was doing good was in the majority of the population, because the "extra-curricular" activities didnt come 2 the daylight after germany was being pounded by all sides(losing). And more of an interest was that somehow america did all the digging and sniffing(coincidence?).

PS. If we were 2 speak of war crimes against Poland etc. I got some juicy shite about all Countries. NO1 WAS INNOCENT IN WW2. But that does not make it good or less sad that people actually r capable about doing this.

PPS. Yes germany killed millions of gipsies(spelled?), homeless, russians, slavs and jews. But they werent the only ones killing innocent people.


My point? Simple; nazi germany was actually a socialist country, BUT the leaders made plans 2 TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!! and thats where they fucked up and made a booboo(HUGE FUCKING MISTAKE).

NOW CUT THE CRAP ABOUT NAZI GERMANY!!!! u guys r making me crazy....

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Of all the things I lost, I miss my mind the most.

Hey - we Poles killed some Jews as well and after the war expatriated close to 150.000 Ukrainians etc.

Nazi Germany was not purely socialist - it was, as the abbreviation suggests, national socialist and that is something quite different (as you point out yourself). All left-wing parties can be described as socialist (as in: pro-social) but not as national socialist or communist. I'm a member in one of the Polish left-wing parties and I assure you that our program doesn't have much in common with the things that happened in Nazi Germany - even the pro-social concepts that are praised e.g. by Mint are handled in a completely different way even if the results are similar (which only goes to show that you CAN go about positive things without having to murder millions of people ^^).

Basically what you said, Crackhead - on the surface Germany was a socialist country BUT the underlying motivation was extremely right-wing nationalism and in this case you can't separate the two concepts so I'd rather if people stuck to modern socialist parties (not people looking back like Haider) if they like the idea in general. :-P

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell