Nawwww instagib them by going demo

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

Any team that knows there is a spy will pretty much make it insanely difficult for you. As well as the fact that due to low respawn times there is usually a constant flow of people moving towards the battle line, which makes something as simple as unstealthing behind someone and stabbing him and then stealthing a perilous task.

Of course you can be top player etc. Under certain circumstances the spy is good to score points with... this usually involves a lot of heavies and snipers on the other team. Although any decent player will pretty much own you. Right now a spies chance in a 1vs1 where he doesn't have the sneak up from behind advantage will end in a dead spy and 40% ubercharge for the medic, or a free kill for any other class. Lets just face it spy is fine if you can unstealth and nobody happens to turn around the corner behind you/come out of the door behind you/turns around to check how many teammates are with him/spy check scan.

Add to this the number of problems I have stated in my opening post, and its pretty obvious that the spy is severely lacking compared to other classes.

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

Yes that works if you are a good sniper... unlike me

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02:47 <@NabNab> saifon: you so sexy
02:47 <+saifon> D:

Haha... I had same thought reading Mike's answer... ^^

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

Quote from tf2 blog if anyone hasn't read the other post or not read tf2 blog

HMMMMM

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Computer is fixed. That is all.

550 damage really isn't that much :S

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

Nice post indeed. Really hit the nail on the head. I play spy a lot and the thing that bothers me the most is how easily his cover is blown, just a bit of dmg and your cloak field will flicker, and then you have to wait for next respawn. Taking corners is also very dangerous :(

I still enjoy playing spy though, it's just something very satisfying about the backstabs you actually manage to pull off, and if you manage to get away alive that only doubles the joy. But yea, I'm really hoping for a somewhat radical change when the spy pack hits the ground, his disguises really are broken :/

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"There is a simple, logical explanation... and there is nothing under the bed.”

crovax is rite , also sniper and spy are not playable with 90+ ping , but this is other story

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"The bots came, saw Saints post count and gave up instantly."-[SpA]futari

no class is playable on 90+ ping

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Comfortably Numb

Any class is playable until about 150 ping. From there your performance will drop really fast.
High ping affects you the least as Scout and Sniper though.

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All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

Classes with slow projectiles suck with high ping, completely messes up your aim as you normally can't predict when the projectile will actually come out of your gun ^^

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

And classes that need fine aiming are okay because hitting something moving in frames is easy?

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Comfortably Numb

Lag compensation works fine in TF2 so its not hard to hit with Hitscan Weapons. The only disadvantage you have is that you basically shoot later than your enemy if he has a lower ping.

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All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

Pretty much

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

to be fair... the spy isn't useless.... the backstab is useless

I had about 40 kills and 8 deaths today.... 5 of those where backstabs...

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[SpA]Revenge "Wheres the element of surpise :/"

[SpA]Mint "IN.... MY....PANTS"

[SpA]Minimoose "Revenge is going to jump out of your pants?"

Yeah mate but you yourself could've probably gotten a lot more as a soldier. That was half the point crovax was trying to make, that whatever the spy can do, an equally skilled in another class player can achieve+more as that different class.

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Comfortably Numb

you know whats rofl fail hardcore? Spy vs Scout

Backstab? The one lucky moment a scout stands still

Revolver? The one lucky moment you manage to score a hit that is a crit

Seriously, scout rapes the spy so hard its not even funny.
I reckon the scout is better at anti spy then a flipping pyro, because you can at least hit the pyro with the revolver a good amount of times.

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

i usually rape scouts with a revolver ;o

Given equally skilled players:
Scout rapes Spy.
Spy rapes Heavy.
Heavy rapes Scout.


Now wheres the problem?

Every class has its role in the game and the Spy's is to take out key targets. Since he barely can take advantage of his teammates' powers (because he's alone in the whole enemy horde) he will die very often. Adapt to it.

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All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

Dito. I really don't see the point in complaining about this and that class...Personally I think everything is well balanced and just enjoy the game.

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Ze Ãœbermensch

Describe key targets?

Sniper
Heavy
......
ehm...
ehm...
well ...

I think I already established that backstabbing a highly mobile target like the medic and scout is pretty much impossible. Of course scouts and medics that are stupid enough not to watch the area and stand still will die. Stabbing soldiers is a hassle as well, since jumping seems to be a good way to mess up backstab registration.

Well I still manage to stab a fair amount of people, but only if they are preoccupied firing at something else. and even then people that see you will quickly change their priorities to killing you, since they know you are weak firepower and have low health.

Anyhow my point is that as any other class you will be at a disadvantage against other classes, but the scout vs spy and arguably the pyro vs spy are larger then any of the other classes.

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

Snipers
Heavies
Medics (with or w/o UC)
Soldiers
Demomen
General lonely enemies

Also, if you use your mic you can be like the best caller in the game. You'll know where enemies are and where they will be before anybody else.
ZOMFG I cannot hit a Scout with my pipes and cannot detonate stickies on time. Make Scouts slower kthxbai?

Medics are fairly easy to kill since they often have to fall back due to enemy spam, and they often go a longer route due to dodging-movement and strafing.
Thats one of the situations that you should use to your advantage... killing people that are focused on something else is easier.
Therefore making them ignore your team and give them a chance to gain a firepower-advantage.
Cloaking and getting behind the enemy and stabbing them is not a disadvantage.


Basically your point is "I cannot kill every class in every situation as Spy".
Correct. Thats the point of the game. Knowing yourself and your enemy and using the advantages and avoiding disadvantages. And using your teammates to gain yourself advantages.


However, I have to say that its true that Spy gets more useless the more retarded your team is, which it is often on publics ;/

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All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

And yet, the medic moves faster then the spy. The only time to stab people is when they are preoccupied or all alone and not paying attention. Yet when they are preoccupied they will also jump and strafe like a mad mofo. At which point the backstab animation will make you miss a lot.

I don't ask for the spy to become imba lol I kill you easily. I ask for him to get a good pay off when he infiltrates and gets behind people. Removing backstab animation would solve most of the problem already with the erratic movement during combat. Because the chaos during combat makes it pretty shit to stab people when you get the stabbing animation.

Also, why the FUCK do people keep thinking I want the spy to wtfpwn scouts or some other classes? I don't I am just noting that the spy has one of the most severe disadvantages in the game.

And if you can't kill the scout the time it takes him to get withing pointblank of you as a demo... well tbh suck. stickies will pretty much solve most scout problems.

Besides its pretty funny to look at psychostats. top 20 spies, nobody manages to get a 2:1 k/d ratio.

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

Tell me a repeating situation when the medic moves into one straight direction for 10 seconds without stopping or strafing from left to right except warmup when you coulnd't OMGSTUPIDSPAIH...eh sorry backstab...us anyway

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I invite everyone to take a look at the top 25 spy players. Now tell me the class is fine... because I think its the only class that has such a low k/d ratio besides the medic for its top 25.

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

They need to bring back old knife<->sapper switching speed, now its almost impossible to stab engi and sap sentry. But sitting on engies head eating his dispenser for constant cloak is always win, even if you die after stabbing his head

I just sketched how the medic's and spy's movement basically looks like:



See how you can keep up with a medic?
Predicting enemy movement also is crucial for a Spy.
Instant Kill isnt payoff enough?
Agreed but thats nothing you can change so you have to live with it.
If you dont mind if youre playing "cheap" theres a script that makes you turn around 90°, attack and then almost instantly returning 90° when pressing a bound button, therefore avoiding the backstab animation (no I dont use it). Thats the only way to avoid it.
Disadvantage in direct combat, advantage when coming from behind (which is pretty easy due to cloak). Fair enough.
Scouts have a disadvantage in direct combat as well and you better come from behind if you want to kill people. Same thing here.
Dodge.
k/d ratio means next to zero in TF2.

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All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

lovely sketch, yet you forget to note that the medic will be looking all over the place, and jumping. So you only got a tiny fraction of time to get the stab, or get luck and he just went backwards for a bit and got stuck on you. Backstab animation will mess it up.

Anyhow this discussion, will just resolve in a you are wrong because <fill in reasons here> no I am right because <fill in reasons here>

If you think spy is awesome and doesn't need a big heap of love, fine. Most others seem to agree that the spy right now can easily be outperformed by other classes. And k/d ratio's do matter, they tell you what classes are better than others... or are you going to say those players are just better? I disagree with the thought of, well spy can pick its target so he must suck in combat. I still reckon that a player that manages to kill 6 times more than his deaths is contributing more to the team then a player that manages to stab 1 person and then spends 20-30 seconds respawning.

(and about the comment saying dodge, I say aim!)

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

They aren't a kd ratio based class :S I thought everyone by now had decided that stats were useless anyway, also there have been plenty of times when spies have been the top scoring players. Yes it is frustrating playing against the decent team, but you can say the same about engy, which is also frustrating to play when your team sucks.

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

wait, top scoring player?

Never happend to me...

See, everyone just keeps going they are supposed to take out a key target. Fine but after that you are gonna get toasted, if you didn't get toasted on forehand.

(Look guys, I am doing fine as a spy. But I find it takes quite a bit more of skill and LUCK, than any other class in the game)

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do