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Bartg
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 00:05 
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You can top the scoreboard with a spy with kdr at about 1, just need to take out a lot of engies and have ton of luck ;) But playing spy only whole round is frustrating as hell, so i prefer spying for about 60-70% round time.
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Crovax20
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 00:11 
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Haha, well I was being sarcastic in my post (just making sure, since text doesn't convey much)

I just enjoy the challenge (frustration) of playing spy and getting top scores

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[SpA]demm
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 09:21 
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[SpA]Relentless wrote:
k/d ratio means next to zero in TF2.
Exactly. Only the p/m (points per minute) ratio tells you anything. And I have to say that whatever you think of any kind of stats tracking system, points per minute are pretty accurate at describing someone's skill level.
[SpA]Crovax20 wrote:
But I find it takes quite a bit more of skill and LUCK, than any other class in the game
I remember back in the day when you were always saying that playing spy requires so much thought and skill and you were the only one doing it right. :demm:
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Crovax20
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 09:45 
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[SpA]demm wrote:
[SpA]Relentless wrote:
k/d ratio means next to zero in TF2.
Exactly. Only the p/m (points per minute) ratio tells you anything. And I have to say that whatever you think of any kind of stats tracking system, points per minute are pretty accurate at describing someone's skill level.
[SpA]Crovax20 wrote:
But I find it takes quite a bit more of skill and LUCK, than any other class in the game
I remember back in the day when you were always saying that playing spy requires so much thought and skill and you were the only one doing it right. :demm:
But demm, I am saying that. I do think I am a better than average player, and with the spy I am probably one of the best on the servers. Its just that the factor luck is also rather big for the spy. Basically if the guy turns around (a corner) just as you come up... well thats just bad luck and you will probably get gibbed. The scout can rush away, or have a decent chance of still killing the target.

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[SpA]demm
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 09:51 
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Ye, I know what you're saying Crovax. This has been the reason I don't play much spy from the very start. As Spy you're just so dependent on luck. Luck is probably the biggest component in Spy gameplay and it is much more dominant than in any other class.

I've always said that, but you on the other hand said the exact opposite back in the days. You said it just requires more skill to play than any other class.
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Crovax20
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 09:57 
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It does.

Well not to play, but to do good with it. You see, there are ways to avoid unlucky situations. Personally when I play spy, I make sure I have a fresh clover 4 on my PC.

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[SpA]Relentless
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 15:56 
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And k/d ratio's do matter, they tell you what classes are better than others...
So medics are the worst players in the world?
Quote:
yet you forget to note that the medic will be looking all over the place, and jumping.
Not if hes distracted by someone else of your team that shoots him or his patient. About the jumping: Thats basic movement in TF2 and you have to live with it.
Quote:
(and about the comment saying dodge, I say aim!)
133% speed + doublejump and you cant dodge demoman's pipes? Fairly easy tbh (the Scout is meant to be the counterpart of the demoman btw).
Also, I usually flank my enemies when I want to kill them.
Quote:
See, everyone just keeps going they are supposed to take out a key target. Fine but after that you are gonna get toasted, if you didn't get toasted on forehand.
Refer to:
Quote:
Every class has its role in the game and the Spy's is to take out key targets. Since he barely can take advantage of his teammates' powers (because he's alone in the whole enemy horde) he will die very often. Adapt to it.

Always remember one thing: Spy is a supporting class and is NOT meant to wtfpwn and get 10 kills per minute (thats what demomen are supposed to do :P).

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[SpA]SaintK
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 16:08 
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wtf does spy and luck have to do with eachother? It's not that your knife randomly goes around flying trough the room and backstabbing people. no, no, no. Luck in TF2? Tons of it, with randomly launched missles and pipebombs and what not.
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sebas
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 16:18 
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[SpA]Relentless wrote:
133% speed + doublejump and you cant dodge demoman's pipes?
Like a good demoman can't predict where you're going to fall from the double jump and aim a pipe? :) Sure, it's hard and nobody can always get them right but the demoman can defend himself against a scout, mostly because if he gets one shot in the scout's as good as dead.

I hunt spies as a scout in pubs. I'll follow them, pick up all the ammo packs, wait for them to uncloak..anything that gets them killed tbh. And this is mostly because they're in the front lines and they're utterly defenceless. Sure, a revolver crit will hurt and mybe get me killed but that happens rarely.

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[SpA]Relentless
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 16:33 
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Like a good demoman can't predict where you're going to fall from the double jump and aim a pipe? :) Sure, it's hard and nobody can always get them right but the demoman can defend himself against a scout, mostly because if he gets one shot in the scout's as good as dead.
Its actually true but its easiest to dodge pipes as scout.
Also a demoman can do like nothing about a flanking scout.
The lack of a hitscan weapon also makes it hard for a demoman to finish off damaged enemies (unlike Soldiers/Scouts), they either get a full hit or no hit at all.

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sebas
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 16:52 
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Well, when you get hit by a pipe you'll also get bumped in a direction making you lose the speed advantage and be a sitting duck for the next shot.
But, yeah, flanking or coming from behind will get him killed before he has the chance to turn around right. ^_^

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Crovax20
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 17:25 
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I rest my case, I stand by my points. No amount of nit picking sentences is going to change my mind. Because like I stated before, this will just become a nitpicking you are wrong, no you are wrong battle, which will lead to nothing. And for the last time, get this through you thick heads, I don't want the spy to get 10 kills per minute, I don't want him to imba rape everything. I want him to be able to sneak in, kill a couple of targets and pull out. You people seem to think I want him to get imba weapons or something.

All I would personally change about the spy is, increase his health by 25, remove backstab animation and give him the ability to shoot fake ammo out of the gun (could be a replacement for the revolver) so you don't have to stand like a retard when your own team charges in and basically unveils your presence. Anyone with a brain will think why isn't that guy firing his gun! Gunfire is what the whole game revolves around, so anyone who does not fire his gun repeatedly randomly over the place at all is a suspect.

I doubt those three things will make the spy an IMBA LOL I PWN EVERYTHING class

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Bartg
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 18:22 
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Yep + 25 health and no backstab animation would be great, and unlockable shooting fake ammo would be awesome Image
:mrgreen:
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[SpA]Relentless
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 18:28 
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Quote:
I want him to be able to sneak in, kill a couple of targets and pull out.
Problem is that the older TF2 gets, the better people get and you cant prevent them from doing so. Therefore Spy will get harder with every day, but giving him a major boost will imbalance the game.
Quote:
increase his health by 25
Totally NO. We already experienced what increasing the health of a single class does (Backburner). Even if its only 25 health it can totally change the gameplay.
Quote:
remove backstab animation
For
Quote:
ive him the ability to shoot fake ammo out of the gun (could be a replacement for the revolver)
Like I already said very good and creative idea and you should spam Valve about it :P

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Crovax20
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 18:50 
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There is a diffence between 225 (pyro had +50) health and 150 (+25) health.

What they did with the pyro is effectively giving him the health he needed to get close to anything and be on it long enough to kill it. The spy doesn't have a gun that has enough damage to do that. What it would do, is make him a bit more survivable in the getting out/survive splash damage from random rockets.

The impact of giving the spy +25 health will be far less profound then giving a pyro +50. two rockets can still pretty much kill him, stickies will pretty much gib him in two. Of course it would have to get playtested, but I am pretty sure that this change won't have the same impact as the pyro's rediculous 225 health did. The spy simply can't benefit as much from it as the pyro did.

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[SpA]SonnyBlack
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 18:59 
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shoot fake ammo?
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[SpA]Relentless
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 19:33 
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Sonny, like you are a blu spy disguised as a red soldier and youre shooting fake rockets that dont actually hurt your teammates (but maybe make them scream on impact^^), therefore youre pretending to be one of them and being not as suspicious.

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[SpA]SonnyBlack
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 20:03 
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Aaaah, I was thinking of spies shooting ammopacks. :mrgreen:
Didnt know whats that good for. :mrgreen:
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[SpA]Scatterbrain
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2009, 22:32 
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[SpA]SonnY BlacK wrote:
Aaaah, I was thinking of spies shooting ammopacks. :mrgreen:
Didnt know whats that good for. :mrgreen:
give him a bigass, really innacurate gun, and you've got a sort of stealth 'support' class from BF2

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[SpA]Spikespiegel
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2009, 12:51 
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The spy is fine, l2p.

On a more serious note:
Sure there are things bugged about the spy, mainly the backstab animation. But besides this, the spy class is fine, and if you disagree, you should consider playing a class you know how to play.

Sure, the spy may not harvest as many points as it's counterparts, but it was never intended to. A spy is supposed to look for targets of interest, primarily the targets that may obstruct his own team's performance. This will mainly be engineers and heavies, two classes that the spy excels at killing.

Remember that TF2 is an advanced game of rock/paper/scissors, so that a spy cannot kill scouts or medics easily, is what could be expected.

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Endtro
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2009, 19:43 
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Good comments in general here.

I suppose there is one quick way of making spy a more equal class, and perhaps more effective - enable friendly fire.

The first two advantages that come to mind are, you guessed it, less spy checking because you would be a threat to your own team.
Secondly it would generate players on the same team to become creative with, for example, rocket jumping techniques.

Just a thought, it may add that added complication that TF2 is renowned to not have.
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[SpA]Relentless
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2009, 21:49 
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Endtro wrote:
Good comments in general here.

I suppose there is one quick way of making spy a more equal class, and perhaps more effective - enable friendly fire.

The first two advantages that come to mind are, you guessed it, less spy checking because you would be a threat to your own team.
Secondly it would generate players on the same team to become creative with, for example, rocket jumping techniques.

Just a thought, it may add that added complication that TF2 is renowned to not have.
Absolutely no!!!

Medics would have to run 200m behind their sollies/demomen because of rocket/stickyjumping.
Soldiers/Demomen could fire nowhere without hurting their teammates.
Scout buddys that accidentally kill themselves.
And other stuff.

Theres a reason FF is disabled by default in TF2. Its just doesnt fit in there.

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Endtro
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2009, 21:56 
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Yeah, you're right. Haha, *tears up and throws in the bin...*
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sebas
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2009, 22:42 
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No, really mate, FF on would be silly. :P

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Endtro
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2009, 23:10 
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I just want to see a set of soldiers rocket jumping off of each other hehe.
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[SpA]Relentless
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2009, 23:15 
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However, I have to say Low Gravity with Friendly Fire enabled and heavies only is awesome :4

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[SpA]Minimoose!
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2009, 01:01 
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Endtro wrote:
I just want to see a set of soldiers rocket jumping off of each other hehe.
You can do it with any enemy soldier, in 6v6 you occasionaly bash into enemy soldiers in midair then shoot each other and go flying apart :D

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[SpA]Edeph
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2009, 14:20 
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[SpA]Relentless wrote:
Sonny, like you are a blu spy disguised as a red soldier and youre shooting fake rockets that dont actually hurt your teammates (but maybe make them scream on impact^^), therefore youre pretending to be one of them and being not as suspicious.
how would the spy look for the teammates ? wield a rocket launcher ?or with the revolver shooting rockets ? :mrgreen: i would laugh my ass off if i could see such thing

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Crovax20
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2009, 15:11 
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Edeph wrote:
[SpA]Relentless wrote:
Sonny, like you are a blu spy disguised as a red soldier and youre shooting fake rockets that dont actually hurt your teammates (but maybe make them scream on impact^^), therefore youre pretending to be one of them and being not as suspicious.
how would the spy look for the teammates ? wield a rocket launcher ?or with the revolver shooting rockets ? :mrgreen: i would laugh my ass off if i could see such thing
swap the revolver for the POW gun. Everytime you fire it a little flag with pow written on it comes out of it. Just looks like a normal shot for the opposing team ofcourse. Or a special gun that shoots paper props or something.

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[SpA]Relentless
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2009, 15:12 
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Edeph wrote:
[SpA]Relentless wrote:
Sonny, like you are a blu spy disguised as a red soldier and youre shooting fake rockets that dont actually hurt your teammates (but maybe make them scream on impact^^), therefore youre pretending to be one of them and being not as suspicious.
how would the spy look for the teammates ? wield a rocket launcher ?or with the revolver shooting rockets ? :mrgreen: i would laugh my ass off if i could see such thing
Ofc you'd look like a Soldier that shoots rockets with his rocket launcher :P

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