http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2293

hahaha... what if i just used it for milestones?

I reverted back to normal though.

No unlocks for a week, that's cool.

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Computer is fixed. That is all.

You and all those achievements farmer deserver a permanent unlockable ban in my world.

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Slightly harsh judgement.

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Computer is fixed. That is all.

I wonder if my unlocks have been taken away as well - I can't check it properly right now because TF2 is virtually unplayable in the current state of my computer. Next time I won't be unlocking all achievements at once or go on a farming server - simple as that. ;-)

As to your statement, Vögelchen. I disagree with Valve's policy of having to grind through nonsensical achievements (many of them very circumstantial, especially in former updates), as easy as they might be to get, to get new weapons. Of course they are the game's creators and they can do whatever they want with it but I, as a player, might just as well show my discontent with this system - that has almost nothing to do with normal gameplay, rather some weird artificial meta-game - by using something like the Steam Achievement Manager. Achievements have nothing to do with skill (at least in the amount required to get unlocks) and don't affect the gameplay, like e.g. cheats (in fact the Steam Achievement Manager is used without launching the game). Sooner or later everybody has all the unlocks anyway, so why bother? Some find it fun - I find it totally artificial game padding about which e.g. Jonathan Blow, the creator of Braid, preached about in many of his lectures.
On an interesting side note I got the first set of achievements for TF2 in a completely legit way - because they didn't actually DO anything (same case with L4D achievements).

Update: Ha, ha - fail back @ Valve - my unlocks are still there, I just checked (which took me like half an hour if you count both the launch and shutdown times of TF2 ;-). However, for safety reasons I removed the achievements again and unequipped the unlocks - no point in keeping them around for Valve to get suspicious since I can't play right now anyway. ;-)

I wonder if the fact that apparently MANY players unlocked the weapons with external applications will give Valve something to think about besides the urge to write smug blog posts. =)

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

A few people saying they have lost them, but more saying they're fine, wonder if it's just a scare tactic as well.

1 away from legit third unlock now, legit play, although did the 25 intels solo running.

In my entire lifetime i've capped 10 intels on SpA servers, soooo... i'll not wait in public games.

I don't have to justify it anyway, i'm just saying it's easy. 8 hours of play, 1 away from unlock. Some are luck based, got some hard to get ones already SWOOOOOOO it's harder the more nooby the scout though.

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Computer is fixed. That is all.

my gripe with the achievements is that I have already done all of them, when they weren't out.. and now they ask me to do em all again!

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

Didn't loose my unlocks
(I just unlocked the Milestones, not the rest of the achievements)

Same here.

And my view is the same as before - give everyone all the weaps straight away and let people get the achievements for fun if thats what they want to do.

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The stats below lie. I'm actually much much worse.

Imho it's getting easier to get all the needed achievements from update to update.

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

Getting weapons when you shouldn't IS cheating. It's like starting Doom2 with IDKFA just because you can, but hey, you would've gotten those weapons later on anyway, right?
You Lim may be thinking about making a statement, the vast majority of those who use the unlocker however do it becuase it's an easy way for something they did not earn and it's not something to get you banned for.
Achievements have become a popular system in a lot of games. It's something that keeps track of your gameplay in a fun way. Some reward you, some don't, some are hard, some are just dead silly and so on. It doesn't mean you have to like them, it means that others do however.
Cheating your way to some items when the achievements in tf2 are so easy is much more your fail mate.


edit.
To make my point further clear. It's a basic concept in gaming, like say if you would start a Starcraft game and set the code for resources, you would've gotten those anyway later on, in the meantime however you are killing oponents with units or weapons you would've not been entitled to at that time. That is cheating and justyfing it by calling it a statement is pretty much silly.

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Comfortably Numb

amen my friend, amen

Totally agree with Sebas here.
I mean people can do whatever they want, but I like to get my achievments through "normal" gameplay, cause it think it is just fun.
Yeah it takes some time, but I don't bother if I take ages to get the new weapons.
As a matter of fact I haven't even reached the first milestone for the scout yet.
Besides that, I think by getting the weapons through achievments, you actually get to play classes you did not like that much or are not that good at.
That's how I got the Medic to be my main class.

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Ze Ãœbermensch

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

Its not cheating and I couldn't disagree more with this statement (not in an agressive way but from a point of view).

When TF2 was launched both teams were equal - in terms of weaps / abilities etc. Restricting weaps and abilities just adds imbalance to the game.

Why should I be forced to get stupid achievements that I don't enjoy getting (and for some are actually impossible to get in normal competitive play) in order to get to a even playing field???

Sure keep achievements but don't force me to play the game in way I don't enjoy in order to get something so fundamentally important.

What possible imbalance or harm would it do to just to give everyone the weaps up front. This isn't a chuffing RPG after all, if I was interesting in grinding I'd play WoW**

**For the record I will never ever play this game as long as I live.

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The stats below lie. I'm actually much much worse.

So you say it would be better to just give all unlocks at start ?

Thats 100% exactly what I'm saying.

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The stats below lie. I'm actually much much worse.

I also think the longer this goes along the less attractive and daunting it will be for new players to enter TF2, which is definitely a bad thing for the long term.

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The stats below lie. I'm actually much much worse.

Mate, not liking something in a game is natural. Using 3rd party programs or codes to work around a game component is by all means cheating.
And the only reason people ar doing it is because they are not getting banned for it.

As for the achievements themsleves, I've told you already that many people enjoy them and like the system. It's the reason why it's present in so many games. I'm trying to make you like them, that would be silly of me, I'm just trying to tell you that not enjoying it yourself does not justify cheating. That's all.

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Comfortably Numb

So what the point of new weapons, they are rewards for doing certain things - as you dont have exp points or ranks in tf2, achievements are imho only way to deliver new weapons.

Hmm in a RPG perhaps.

Look a how long and successful Counterstrike has been. New weaps were always being introduced. I never had to :



in order to get one

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The stats below lie. I'm actually much much worse.

LOL how many new weapon were introduced to cs since it is oficially sold by valve ? 3 ? And it was years before achievements began to become popular due to xbox360.

In RPG's?

You're talking like you're not familiar with a reward system when it's present in every aspect of life. You go to work, your reward is the money you get, you jump two extra boxes in Mario you get an extra life, you play a game longer you get to see the end, you play a class in tf2 more, you get some weapons as rewards.
You get rewarded for playing more and companies like to reward their active customers.

The only thing that bothers me though is that even if the achievemnts in tf2 are so easy to get, I mean all you have to do is play the game, people will still cheat their way through it.
The weapons in tf2 are not a given, they are rewards. You can play the game just fine without them but if you want them you have to put in a little extra work. That's it.

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Comfortably Numb

Yep thats sad, I know medic weapons at first were extremely hard to get, but scout achievements can easily be done during normal play. For example i was testing usage of bonk a lot yesterday, as a result about 20 people got achievement Retire the Runner by killing me on after-bonk slowdown
And getting Foul Territory( Cause an environmental death by stunning an enemy.) was simply hilarious - I hit sniper with ball to stun him, then he received rocket in da face and fell down from balcony to death

Of course unlocking weapons with third party programs IS cheating.
The thing is, however - from another player's perspective it is COMPLETELY irrelevant how you got your weapons. Everybody has access to unlocks sooner or later, you don't cheat during actual gameplay and you didn't spoil the fun for anybody while unlocking your weapons the other way.

So yes, I cheated - just like I cheated when I typed in "greedisgood" when playing Warcraft III campaigns if I found a certain mission too frustrating. So what? The Steam Achievement Manager doesn't even work inside a particular game, it's purely centered around achievements thta in every other game don't give you anything and in TF2 serve as a cockblock to delay getting your hands on something. I wonder how some pro player would feel if he/she had a match the very day the unlocks appeared...
Of course not - BUT the fact that you oppose achievements coupled with the fact that you do not harm anybody or the gameplay itself and from another player's perspective it is completely irrelevant sure does justify that in my book. I cheat the system, not other players and hence I have absolutely no remorse about doing something wrong.

If you fire up an achievement map with everything in place and let some friends join it takes around 5 minutes per player to unlock all the weapons for him - so what's the point of even attempting that? The weapons are rewards for what exactly, if they are so easy to get? If it's only a question of time before I get something, then I choose the shortcut. That's also the reason why I don't play classic MMORPGs anymore - time became an important commodity for me.

P.S. I wonder why you became so righteous, Bart - you got all the unlocks (not all achievements, but still) in previous class packs on achievement maps - I know, because I was there. So, how exactly does that differ from using the Steam Achievement Manager (not from a legal point of view, since you're breaking the license agreement, of course) except for the fact that it takes a couple of minutes longer?

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

You don't "need" the unlocks for classes you don't like or play. You get the unlocks easily with classes you like/play with just simply playing the class. So I don't see "I don't enjoy getting" anywhere.

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

Let me summarise for those that don't want to read war and peace.

Lim and Jedi = Right
Everyone else = Wrong

Game Over - insert cheat code to start again....

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The stats below lie. I'm actually much much worse.

You know - for me this isn't about "right and wrong". I'm not even expecting anybody to share my point of view if he doesn't do so already - I'm just explaining why I do what I do and everybody can judge my opinion as he pleases.
I will still unlock weapons in the fastest way possible (whichever that might be), whether e.g. sebas agrees with that or not, since in the end I consider that a completely personal choice. If I weren't so vocal about it sebas wouldn't even know how I got the achievements in the first place - because it simply doesn't matter. ;-)

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

Jedi sighs

Jedi was making light hearted joke

Jedi wishes Lim would have played along

Jedi now sad

Jedi types greedisgood

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The stats below lie. I'm actually much much worse.

True Lim, but you see it does afffect other people's gameplay when you're using a weapon you shouldn't. Indirectly, in a very minor way since in tf2 personal skill counts for a lot more than class and items. It's not like other games where wielding the UNDYING STAFF OF DOOM +5 is enough.
And of course it's your choice, I'll just reserve the right to crack some CHEATOR!! jokes.

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Comfortably Numb

I just told you that unlocking a weapon takes around 5 minutes if you play with people from your Friends list (you yourself said how easy it is to unlock) and I wouldn't join a public server before unlocking the weapons anyway since after class packs public servers turn into dens of chaos. So how am I using a weapon I "shouldn't be using"? You mean - a weapon I should be using 5 minutes later than I am? ;-)
I also don't like to be pushed into playing a certain class - I got the unlocks, I am content with testing them for like 10 minutes if I feel like it and then I can return to playing the game normally. Imagine how giving players unlocks immediately would diminish the problem of having a server full of one class (people would still join the given class but at least for shorter amounts of time).

You might argue that creating specific situations with your friends is not how achievements should work, since they're "meant" to be acquired during normal gameplay but I on my part think that would be a major stretch and even Valve wouldn't be so picky about that - if you look at certain other games on Steam or even earlier class packs many achievements simply cannot be acquired in normal gameplay and that's why the Medic update was so f00ked up with people running around and doing crazy things instead of helping their team win (I'm glad Valve learned from the mistake).
I got the joke but took the liberty to take it as an opportunity to strike another point home. ;-)

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell