SPY CHANGE NO. 1: Backstab animation made much faster so that there is virtually no delay between the time the stab is engaged and the stab itself


Pros: Significantly reduces missed backstabs resulting from target “slipping” away from knife between time stab is engaged and the stab itself. Also reduces facestabs, something all spies should endorse.

Cons: Reduces the range of the knife (the old “fast stab” no longer works), requiring you to be close to flush up against your opponent’s back to execute a successful stab. Also, backstab hitbox significantly reduced such that stabs even a few degrees off from the center of someone’s back will not register (e.g. sidestabs, angled stabs).

JENING Verdict: JENING does not appreciate it. While it is nice to not have stabs “slip” away, skilled spies could already do this pre-change by executing “fast” backstabs. The reduced range of the knife makes it even harder for spies to backstab classes whose speed is equal to or greater than the spy (i.e. all but heavies and soldiers). The significantly reduced hitbox also makes it much harder to land backstabs (just being a few degrees off of center will result in a failed backstab), immunizing any player from backstabs who stands next to a wall, even if their back is not completely parallel to and flush up against the wall itself.

SPY CHANGE NO. 2: When disguised, spies can change the weapon they appear to be holding (by changing into your disguise while selecting a different weapon — e.g. if you are holding a knife while you disguise, you will appear to be holding the disguised class’s melee).


Pros: Enhances viability of disguises by allowing spies to adapt disguises to different situations.

Cons: Because the weapon your disguised character appears to be holding will correspond to the weapon you are holding when you put on your disguise, spies who usually have their knife out will often accidentally forget to change to their revolver when putting on their disguise, resulting in a disguise that is less credible (e.g. a pyro running around with his ax).

JENING Verdict: JENING does not appreciate it. While it is good to see robustness added to the disguise kit, because most spies have their knives out as their primary weapon, and because disguising as a player who is running around with his melee weapon out all the time is rarely credible, this change makes it more time consuming and trickier to change into a credible disguise. This change could be significantly improved if there was a way to set your default disguise weapon.

SPY CHANGE NO. 3: Spies can now see the names and health levels of players on the opposing team, in the same way that they can see that information for players on their own team.


Pros: Allows you to identify your opponents and their health levels to assess targeting priority and the best weapon to use when engaging them.

Cons: Perhaps a bug, but spies can now track cloaked spies on the opposing team in the same way that all players can track cloaked spies on their own team (i.e. if you put your cursor on an otherwise cloaked and invisible spy, his name box will pop up).

JENING Verdict: JENING will appreciate it if the “bug” is fixed, otherwise, JENING does not appreciate it. Knowing who you are fighting and their health level is huge, particularly on arena. However, any change that allows opponents to track a fully cloaked spy greatly reduces the playability of the class, particularly given how effective random spy checking is at revealing cloaked spies.

JENING wonders what you, his friends, think of the update and invites comments and discussion . . .
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Some interesting points

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

I like these, although i'm missing sidestabs that really annoys me, but i'm getting so many more backstabs, i never miss from behind, only if I cock up, i can't QQ if i cock up, but i sure QQ when someone moves so i miss the stab.

sure the weapon switching is fiddly, you should be thinking about your disguise, it's not hard to press 1 (then B, or remap it so an easier key), you soon get used to it.

Saw a demo running with bottle, instant spy fail

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Computer is fixed. That is all.

I'd hope valve will update the system so that pressing b will cycle through weapons held by the disguise instead of it being bound by your currently equipped weapon. Right now its an awkward system

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

This is how I expected it to work. When I first tried it out I thought it was bugged, because it didn't change weapon when I hit B.
The way it is not, it takes too much time switching weapons imho.

Hmm.. as a not spy player I'm seeing this a little different.

@1: As I don't play Spy I dunno how this is, but imho it "sounds" more adequate. All those "drive-by-backstabs" we really annoying. If the Spy now has to time his attack better, it feels more "realistic". And if you're standing with your back to a wall, you don't expect that a Spy will find a pixel he can backstab.

@2: Dunno how you can find this negative: It's an approvement with no disadvantages compared to the status before?! You only have to get used to correct weapon switching before disguising. And running around with melee weapon out it at least on our servers nothing unusual I'd say... if you're not running straight into me as pyro... burned a poor dude 4 times this way yesterday. On the other side it's now quite "harder" to do proper spycheck as basically everyone could be a spy now. Medic with ubersaw out? Could be a spy! Heavy with Natascha? Could be a spy! ...

@3: No clue, but sounds buggy. Clearly an improvement.

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

I'm done....

8 hours in a row with backstabbing....

I think I'll go to bed now, the god of killing is satisfied

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[SpA]Revenge "Wheres the element of surpise :/"

[SpA]Mint "IN.... MY....PANTS"

[SpA]Minimoose "Revenge is going to jump out of your pants?"

I can write a simple script to speed up the Spy's disguised weapon switching since it's only a series of commands (even in a way that would cycle weapons with e.g. "B") but sadly I won't be able to do it until next week and in a week some new updates might come out.

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

Yep already got one myself for quick weapon disguises ( disguising as heavy with fists is not bad idea - people just thinks its Murk ), I know its not brilliant, and obviously lastinv will behaviour strangely with multiple alias uses, so you can change lastinv to whatever slot you want your weapon to change after disguise weapon ;]

alias melee "slot3; wait; lastdisguise; wait 3; lastinv"
bind "kp_home" "melee"
alias sec "slot2; wait; lastdisguise; wait 3; lastinv"
bind "kp_pgup" "sec"
alias prim "slot1; wait; lastdisguise; wait 3; lastinv"
bind "kp_uparrow" "prim"

I'll take the opportunity to educate people - instead of "wait; wait; wait" you can type in "wait 3", since Valve introduced a parameter to this command in the Source Engine (unlike in e.g. old Half-Life based MODs). :-D
Other than that the script looks viable.

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

I'm not using wait for my scripts ( hmm like 3 of them for spy only ), but this doesnt seem to work correctly without waits, fixed Mr. Teacher

Not "wait3" - "wait 3". ^^
I know it doesn't work without waits since executing weapon switching commands takes some time so you have to put in a delay, lest the next switch is executed before it actually can.

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

missed the space STFU GTFO NOOB !!!111

If the Valve script engine would be a serious engine, you would have to add the missing semicolons.

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

@1 driveby backstab involves having someone run past you and then turning 180 degree and stabbing them. Seems that it hardly works. I am not sure about the wall thing he writes about. If its a sniper next to a wall and you can't stab him its fail, if not I can live with it. See a sniper that zooms in moves his back a little bit sideways, so you can stab him. This was done to ensure that snipers wouldn't just hug walls and be impervious to spies. If this doesn't work anymore it should be fixed. What gets me most is that speedy classes are more difficult to stab with the new backstab. Try closing in on people moving forward that have the same movement speed or greater movement speed then you. In effect the new backstab makes it more difficult to stab medics/scouts that are moving forwardish

@2 he doesn't say its bad, he just points out the system is awkward right now. Which it is.

@3 the bug should be fixed other than that its cool.

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

Being able to see the health of players is overpowered I think, it just gives the spy far too much information on the players. If a player is calling medic all the time and has blood on him, then he should be low, you shouldn't just be able to snipe low health players with a revovler because you can see their health . I am ok with the spies checking for names since it lets them take out key targets and it doesn't seem overpowered (I have changed my mind since the last time I commented on it).

All the other updates are good except that spies should be able to stab snipers with a little back showing, since overwise snipers will just sit by walls

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

Behold spy is now overpowered!

Too be honest, I think the change is a good one. After all, spy is all about picking off a target! I think we agreed on that in the other topic.
After all, it makes sense since you are disguised as the other team!

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

I do agree that he is for picking off a target, but it means that he doesn't have to get near the target to pick them off, and pretty much have no risk of dying. I will play a bit more and see how it goes, I may be back to discuss this more, we shall see! Minimoose away!!

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

I think the changes are good. The health display is precisely what the Spy needed to fulfill his "assassination and infiltration" role. Now the revolver actually becomes a viable option for picking enemies off even if they are not aware that you're a spy. The revolver used to be a last resort option until now and you only get 1 point for killing people with it - it was also too weak and had too few rounds (in most situations) to be a good way of killing people.

Look at the official Valve stats - the Spy was HORRIBLE when it comes to kills per hour even though it's a class that is supposed to be killing stuff. (Destroying things as well but I gather that most of the points the Spy get stem from the fact that backstabs give you two points and that you can easily buff your points by e.g. destroying unattended and abandoned teleporters and stuff.)

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

but lim, its justified because the spy takes out keytargets!

/sarcasm off

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

People don't seem to understand that not every class can have a kpd/kpm like the offensive classes -.-

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

It's not a question about pure KPM/KPD - it's a question whether the Spy was fulfilling his role and he didn't, which is pretty much what Valve wrote about on their blog a while ago.

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

tbh backstab glitches even more often now D:

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All roads may lead to Rome, but all Wikipedia pages eventually get you to the Third Reich. - m3n

+1

Buh buh, why does the defensive class have arguably the best offensive weapon!

Also, sniper seems to be gettting along quite well with kpd/kpm and its designated role... yet its a support class!

I still don't see the logic of, you aren't an offensive class so you must have a shit chance at survival! I think everybody understands well enough that the spy isn't supposed to be raking in massive kills (thats why he gets 2 points per stab). See a soldier could be fighting constantly. A spy has to stab, retreat to safety and make another pass.

Oh well I am not going to go down in another tarpit debate. So I won't discuss this any further

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Da boyz need themselves a Nob they do

If you look at our top ranking spy on the stats, his k/d ratio isn't very good, and he may well be a damn good spy.

People want to have fun, and dying isn't fun.

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Computer is fixed. That is all.

A spy is supposed to sneak, thats never going to be in the fight all the time, there is also obviously going to be a chance of you getting the whole team against you because your isolated behind enemy lines. The spy is like a scout, a hit and run class. I do agree, however, that the spy should have something that makes it easier for him to get away (Maybe this should come in the spy update).

Seeing the health of enemies is ridiculous, I don't care if the spy knows who I am, but being able to see my health is just going over the top on information.

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

Hmm... Because now spies actually became a force you must reckon with instead of the poor guys who were bumped into and immediately shot or burned to death and who had to rely on sapping teleporter entrances at spawn to boost their score? ;-)

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

Not really a force to reckon with tbh, just the fact that they are the only class to know how low health you are and they have the accurate revolver which you can snipe with means that they are powerful in the wrong way (A non-spy like way).

I have played spy before the update, and I could easily get a 4 kpd as spy by just using the revolver, disguise and cloak, now that you can see health means you can target specific people in a croud, while you team mates spam in, and pic off low health people, even better than a sniper. Or you can wait near the big health packs, check peoples health as they go towards it, and just pick off the ones on low health, leaving the high health people alone. Revolver is in no way underpowered (it's not overpowered either).

Give them longer cloak, +50 health while cloaked, which when uncloaked is degenerated over 10 seconds. I don't care what, just not the overpowered thing it is now.

Have they fixed facestabs? That hasn't happened to me in a long time.

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

You almost certainly cant facestab now, since backstabs can only occur with new fast stabbing animation. I think seeing enemies health is awesome, as I said earlier, spy is not anymore stab-cloak-run away player with health at ~80% with primary weapon which can be tracked down so easily - it is real force now, and using revolver on low health players is awesome counter to the fact, that backstab requires almost perfect position now, since you cant stab with just spamming left mouse between bunch of enemies.

The point is that they can pick and choose each enemy and just camp for easy kills, because they know all the information about the player, which is ridiculous.

I can't be bothered to discuss it anymore

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

Exactly, since you made your points and are now stuck with repeating them over and over again - if someone reads the thread he/she will have a good idea what you think and judge the arguments of both sides, since it's quite obvious that nobody will change his position, which isn't the point of a discussion anyway. =)
Nothing we are saying in this thread this way or the other will affect the game too, since it's Valve's decision.

Also, I still think you're doing quite fine Mr. No. 1 in the stats. ^^

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell