Whilst playing 2fort the other day, I fancied going as an engi but wasn't allowed even though there were no other engies; maybe just my bad luck at the time as some other player was able to spawn as an engi soon after....but anyway that's beside the point. With all these different rules and restrictions on certain classes it led me to this idea on the medic.
I find that when there are no medics, the game is sometimes impossible to win or you can't get anywhere near having a decent game, so why can't we have a rule that there has to be at least 1 medic on each team* and as well as all this team balancing malarkey what if you are forced to spawn as a medic. Say for instance, you could do a 50% random where you either spawn as a medic or balance the teams**.
When there are no medics I usually volunteer and go as medic to support my team but this can get quite hard and frustrating when
A: all you hear is medic, medic, medic, medic, medic, medic, medic, medic, medic, medic, meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedic...
B: because you are healing everyone else, (sometimes some that do not even need healing but are shouting medic anyway) you actually forget about the players that are getting pulverised by the enemy and they die which means you die, and
C: the medic is always the first target, so when the medic dies you all die

Just a little thought I had and wanted to share it with you guys for some feedback on whether you agree, if it is possible or if you have a variation of your own.

*obviously if there are not many players then this rule can be obsolete.
**spawing as a medic at the end of a game could be fairer rather than...if you are on the winning team and there are 15 seconds left, you die oh and you go on the losing team, time runs out and you feel robbed after all the effort you put into helping your team win. But of course going from the losing team to the winning team is another scenario but you could end up with all those guys that were dominating you and you can't get your revenge! and I'm sure there are plenty more examples of how annoying the team balance can be sometimes. This is not to say that I disagree with team balance.

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Classy is when a woman has everything to flaunt, but chooses not to show it!

The problem what i have is, that you again will enforce ppl to play something. (and on the classlimit enforce not to play something). And i still disagree with this.

Further more, Saint, please remove the Engi limit what you set for example on 2fort.
Yesterday we were playing, Blue had an engi (or2?) and the red team didn't have an engi and weren't allowed to go engy. This pissed off alot of ppl, and when they found out you could buy immunity for this (So the other team had a big advantage over you) 5 ppl instant left.

And i can't blame them, cause it is actually bullshit.

It's the same as one team can't have a medic and the other team can.
So please remove this classlimit or remove the classlimit-immunity in whole, so no team can have an engi.

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We Shall Not Be Moved!

Just set the engi limit on shitfort to 1 and it should be fine...

Yeah class limiting is one thing, But removing a class all together may please a few but its not what the game is about.


P.S

*chants* annarack, annarack, annarack, annarack, annarack!!! wooohooo

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"Destiny finds those who listen, fate finds the rest"

That is also true Unity, I only came up with this idea because of not being allowed to be an engi. Don't get me wrong I have enough spa points to buy immunity but why would I want to abuse the fairness of the game?!

And being forced to be a class is no fun, but I do feel that maybe you could have a random selection on becoming a medic and staying on your team at the end of those crucial seconds rather than going on to the opposing team.

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Classy is when a woman has everything to flaunt, but chooses not to show it!

Engi's should either be banned altogether from 2fort/turbine or set to limit 1 without exceptions
Forcing people to play medic doesn't sound good to me, I love playing medic but in public servers it can be a very ungrateful job :/

I totally agree with Unity here.
You can't force someone to play medic...
Same goes for the engie classlimit.
I think one engie should be allowed tbh.
Then people might go and actually play medic because they need an über to destroy the sentry.

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Ze Ãœbermensch

I think the main thing everyone that dont have class limit immunity tends to dislike is to be kicked out of a class....so is there anyway that wecan make it so that those with classlimit immunity uses some kind of inviisbles spots so that you cant get kicked out of a class.....it is propably hard to do.....but what do you think....

btw i play medic as my third most played class edit: it was my second most

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"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving."

Shit medic's annoy me so if someone is "forced" to play medic and are shit then you may as well not have a medic at all, you would be better off having that person play at what they do best.

Reverse the roles, if I was forced to play spy I would a) be shit b) no use to the team c) quit the game (and join another server and never come back to SpA) just an example but I don't think this is what we want for our community. Too many rules piss people off, it's simple. We get enough people leaving on a regular basis on a night when me or another member of SpA says they can't build a sentry in that area etc (but this is a legitimate rule), or get swapped to the other team by admin (not me).

Just my thoughts.

I am the medic

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You'll Feel A Little Prick

Yes I agree shit medics are a pain but without medics it can prevent the team to push forward, although you can get an engi to build a dispenser near you but you can't carry that dispenser with you... and how is one supposed to be a good medic unless one practices? Afterall you were all shit when you began...

And ok if I was forced to go as another class then I would do my best at it, but isn't that the same as not being able to play the class you want to play because of limitations? You are forced to be another class because you can't play the one you want!

Swings and Roundabouts...

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Classy is when a woman has everything to flaunt, but chooses not to show it!

Yea, I can confirm that one >< It's a tad annoying when you don't get to play the class you want. It would be nice to see the same functionality for class immunity as the reserved slots got as Mr.Green said. Then again, it might be unfair since I tend to hog a spy-slot whenever I get the chance, only leaving one more open for the other team mates? :/

In general, I'm with Unity on the whole limiting part, I don't wanna force ppl to play a certain role, nor would I wanna be forced to play something that I don't like. Freedom is important.
The problem at the core it seems to me, is that the medic is not as appealing to play for most players, since most of em out there thinks it's more fun to kill and destroy than healing... myself included :p
Still I can be seen playing medic when the need when the team is in need of another medic, playing with friend or I'm having a bad spy day.. or got kicked out of the spy slot ><
It's not that boring to play medic as long as I got my übersaw though, then you can try to get a head start on those übers <3

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"There is a simple, logical explanation... and there is nothing under the bed.”

Is not ok for sure to force someone to play a class, and the same apply to class immunity, bring frustration, I've seen it on servers since immunity cames. I dont wanna think about me not be able to play demo or soldier and see someone doing that because he can buy it. Class choice should be free will, and not buy it (of course, classlimit still standing, is a necessary thing).

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BAM!
"Player with nothing to live for" - PsychoStats

Balancing is not done around a class, it's done around the overall team composition. The medic however is the backbone of any team* and if one team is lacking any then that team will lose horribly. I don't think however that forcing somebody to play a specific class is a viable option. Telling him what he can't play leaves him with a good 8 other picks to choose from. Getting stuck in a role is not cool.

Yes, giving freedom for people to choose whatever they want to play is great but the class restrictions aren't there to piss you off, they are there to try and make teams balanced. And on our servers we really need to try and get in as many balancing rules as we can because it happens all too often that one team ends up with snipers, pyros and engies only or some other dommed combination.

Like the other day one team was stepped on in badwater and some were complaining, I got slapped so, yeah, I switched. Only to find out they had no medics and a gazillion non-combat classes. Luckily there was AutoMattic who I could hug as a medic and hold off the oher team but that's not the point.

This goes as a general issue: If your team is losing, look over team composition and try to talk some sense into your mates before starting the whole "omg stacking" cry.



*Funny you should say that death and destruction brings satistfaction Chad since I find the medic is the first and foremost class that does it. Sure, you need a puppet(<3) up front to deliver the blows but anybody playing medic needs to understand that their egoes are always filled with your mates' gratitude and your opposition's tears.
I should really get myself to write that medic guide I was thinking about. xD

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Comfortably Numb

Thank you Seeeeeebassssss that is exactly my point about medics and why I think they are an important* asset to the team. I do believe that forcing a class on people is wrong but sometimes a little force is needed to get a good composition on the team, usually people don't listen to me when I ask for more medics, (maybe because I am a girl who knows) and then the team is destroyed.

And you would think that with all the intelligent people playing TF that they could see what classes are needed to balance out the strategies!

So this thread has taken a little turn here, thanks for your feedback it's been... educational so far!

*yes all classes are important

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Classy is when a woman has everything to flaunt, but chooses not to show it!

Class limits are a tricky thing...

Its like a scale, tipping over very quickly.

Its: Alot of maps + limits VS small amount of maps and only limit the extreme

I guess its save to conclude after 1 1/2 years that playing ctf maps is a 99% fail due to Sg's in flag base and spawns being too close.

It's more oppressing to force someone to play a class than to deny him one. RAGE is also significantly different.
Also note how we started chopping at TF2 and now we discover it's not very nice or we're not very good at it... balance is disturbed.
I agree with ignoring the class limit immunity althogether on maps with engineer limits; either be it NO ENGIES or FREE ENGIES.
I originally thought that class limit immunity would mean that you get a slot for that class, not kick one person already playing it.
I now feel guilty to do it ... it's kind of like legal griefing.

Regarding medic enforcing I think people are RAGEd when others interfere with their freedoms. Rules doesn't allow you to do something but enforcement is more similar to... rape. People will either quit or grief (willingly not doing the medic job ).

I like that annarack is very evil in suggesting an oft occuring thing in humanity: sacrifice one (or more) for the good of the many (or many more). Equality and free will thrown out the window.


The only people complaining imho are those who play to win and their drive goes higher and higher hurting the diversity of the server (n00bs, fun-players, meleers, and the general freedom of all) because they try to drag them all to a new level, a more competitive playfield.
SpA needs to do some soul-searching and decide how competitive their servers need to be. A prime solution for the SRS BUSINESS players out there is to go join the no-crits server. Almost always empty anyway and if you want to be serious you can't get more than that. If it's too ... forceful then make at least 1 or 2 servers labeled as FUN: where people are losers and fine with it. Becoming too enRAGEd? You go chill on the no-crits (or the SRS labeled) servers, then rejoin or stay there.

Here's another solution(-ish): Give more SpA points to someone who is playing Medic.

btw i agree with the views that the classlimiter in its current form is not good either. As pointed out, people should not be pushed out of their class, and complete limitations should also count for people with immunity.

Thanks you's

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You'll Feel A Little Prick

Those are very true words Sebas. It was what I was trying to say as well, but I was a bit vague, but I meant the direct or personal death and destruction you cause, which as a medic is rather low compared to most other classes. Instead you indirectly cause ridiculously large amounts of death and destruction as a medic coupled up with one of you're team mates. No other two classes are able to level a small sg farm to the ground within seconds (10 ;) as a demo/medic or wipe out a cluster of enemies faster that a kritsübered soldier or heavy :D As you said, players need to understand just that, but also they need to be able to appreciate and value that gratitude more than the personal/direct damage you'd cause as another class ('cept engy ;). Which it seems to me is not often the case :<
Yea you should, "...anybody playing medic needs to understand that their egoes are always filled with your mates' gratitude and your opposition's tears." was indeed a very nicely formulated sentence that packed a dramatic punch while also conveying the message it carries :D


ZxS hit the nail on the head there. Either you are a competitive player, or a less competitive players, depending on if you would sacrifice your own fun (or at least a part of it, it's still a fun game no matter the class you play) and fill a slot for a needed class for the greater good of the team, or just sticking to the class that lets you have the most fun. Though also most players don't enjoy loosing (at least not getting steamrolled :o ), but if they did make a conscious choice whenever to help the team or play the class they like and chose to play the fun class, they got no right to complain if they lose.
Aye, rather encourage players than "punishing" them :D

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"There is a simple, logical explanation... and there is nothing under the bed.”

I've noticed that, quite simply, teams without even one medic, regardless of ability, rarely win. it's simply the presence of a medic - even if his or her capabilites don't go beyond pointing their voodoo-heal-stick at their heavy of choice - that makes all the difference in the world. I've found medics make far, far more difference to the outcome of a game than any other single class, all but regardless of how skilfully they're played.

I practically always switch to medic when we don't have one on the team, as I know that doing so with practically double our teams jobs of winning. and that's not just because it's me playing medic, it could be anyone with half a brain cell. would they enjoy it? if they don't feel that the satisfaction of knowing that a direct intervention from themself changed the tide of the game outbalances the fact that this isn't their favourite class, then no. although I would encourage anyone that doesn't play medic usually to pck it up and help their team out occasionaly; there's a good reason that I have coming up to 111 hours of playtime with them. they're ridiculously good fun ;D
way ahead of you man... although procrastination kicked in about halfway through. MUST FINISH :<

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ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: true genius
ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: doesn't make sense
ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: till you're senseless

I JUST HAD THE BEST IDEA EVER.

I MEAN I STILL HAVE IT.


2 words: Spapoints rewarding Specialattack achievements.

And simply put, one of the achievements could be "In a team with no medics, switch to medic and win the game within 3 minutes" or maybe like 5 minutes on 5 point cp map. This would, for example, reward 10 Spapoints. Maybe. Also it wouldn't be just 1 time achievement but the server would count how many times you get each and show it in your profile or something.

However, it would be hard to pull off. You can't really call up a GUI ingame to have a clear way of clarifying what the achievements are and, what they reward, and list them.

Here's an idea, now for a proof of concept, if it can be made.



PS: This would mean that regular SpA players would get a way to get more points and at the same time encourage them to be useful.

ooh, I actually had that idea a while ago then forgot about it.

"Achievement Earned: Whine about crits being on during sudden death melee"
"Type 100,000 characters in the chatbox"
"Buy a map using spapoints to avoid a mapchange to 2fort"
"Cause McMoist to burst into song on mic"

etc

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ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: true genius
ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: doesn't make sense
ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: till you're senseless

SpA achievements have been discussed a (long) while ago and generally accepted as a good idea (by SaintK himself!) but the time required to implement the system could be spent elsewhere. I think our techteam currently doesn't have much spare time - if they do, then well, off we go. ^^

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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell

thread must be in the spa-only forum?

yeah, I guessed that it would never happen due to the sheer amount of work involved. it would still be awesome to see implemented though.

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ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: true genius
ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: doesn't make sense
ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: till you're senseless

Yeah, we discussed this a long time ago.

Strangely enough, somebody mentioned an achievement about me bursting into song back then too...

Techteam is busy working on a shitload of background stuff and on shiny new webpage.

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

If you guys need any help let me know I do the stuff as a sideline and i kick ass at phpBB

shhhhhhhh

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BAM!
"Player with nothing to live for" - PsychoStats

Don't worry, they'll forget until then

okay but can you raise the class limit a little bit on some classes.....

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"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving."