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Class Limit Needed
https://forum.specialattack.net/viewtopic.php?t=3144		 Page 2 of 2
Author:  DrMcMoist [ 17 Jul 2008, 13:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
[SpA]Greasy_greabo wrote:
Theres no need to class limit - Ive never seen except after an immediate update for 3 days - teams of more than 4 snipers or 4 spies or 4 engis. Seriously In theory Class limits are all well and good as they make the game more fun for the team. But if some poor blighter comes on our servers, wants to play as a sniper/spy/engi and gets lumbered as a soldier why would he stay when there are plenty of non limited servers out there.

Class Limits ruin games as people get harrased into being something they dont want to be.

On another note All the noobs will get put in the class slots for a class and all the good people will end up playing as a class they hate. *ready for uber medic?* "ya" *BANG* - %where was the uber% "Whats an uber?".

The only reasonable class limit is immediately after an update for the weekend. Make it max 5 of that class. And we all good. If Valve wanted class limitations in TF2 they would have done it themselves.
I have to say if I met somebody now who didn't know what an uber was, I'd probably not be able to play from laughter.

Still. It takes me back to when I first played the game. Me and Chim Richels were in an internet cafe in Glasgow. I'd heard it was a good idea for a Heavy and a Medic to team up. So he went Heavy and I went Medic on 2 Fort and we stormed the enemy base. I've done it a thousand times now but at the time it was brilliant. I'd never seen the Ubercharge in action but I knew what it did.

We actually captured the intel then went to the pub and drank beer after beer to celebrate.
Author:  Amyl [ 18 Jul 2008, 14:06 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
I do also believe classlimits like mentioned somewhere on top will ruin the game. It allows a wider window of tactics. Also I must add... I hated the fact you have 3 pyro max, for the simple reason that it's pretty much my class and then I ran around as a usueless sniper untill there was a spot free.

I do get your point.... Magisk and me played a game of dustbowl last night on which there were 6 engineers on one point... That did suck. I do get that. But all it needs is for the stupid pyro's that cannot play to turn in to medics, heal the demo's and uber those guns away. The fact is that the problem of too many peeps in one class when they are not needed is lack of teamwork and addapting to the opponent.

On our previous server during the medic update and in a time long past when it was very popular, we just posted messages; no achievement farming. So if you are going of on your own to get achievements and not help your team at all one warning, then kick, then just ban. Because it does not really matter if there ten pyro's ... as long as they get the team to win its fine and as long as they addapt when it's usesless for ten guns are blowing them to pieces.
Author:  DrMcMoist [ 18 Jul 2008, 14:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
Yeah I'm inclined to agree with you Amyl with the useless Pyro's changing to Medic's to aid the team. I wouldn't say I was a useless Pyro but on some maps, or under some circumstances I have recently switched to Medic in order to help out my team mates rather than run around like a dick trying to get kills and ultimately failing.

When it all comes down to it though, individuals who play the game will always try and play to their own strengths whatever they may be, and this can often end up with people either flooding a class, such as the Pyro's or just being plain selfish. Let's face it, it's called Team Fortress yeah but you're always going to get your share of people who are simply in there to be at the top of their team. And although I can't really blame them, it's simply not beneficial to anybody other than them. And in fact, if the team loses that isn't even the case. When I used to play as a Spy a lot, I rarely played for the team and only really cared about racking up backstabs and saps. It's a bullshit attitude sure but you live and you learn.

The fact of the matter is you are a great Pyro and if some moron is running around torching every random enemy that crosses his path and getting his ass handed to him while you're stuck in a class that you don't feel useful as when you would play for the team, and I've heard you on the mic, you DO play for your team :roll: Under these circumstances, class limiting has effectively failed it's purpose as players who play the game the way it was intended are cock blocked by less capable players.
Author:  Lim-Dul [ 18 Jul 2008, 15:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
Ehm - you know, the choices do not always amount to Pyro or useless Sniper. There are nine classes in TF2 and if you don't understand that then you're making the point of introducing limits for ALL classes all the more valid. =)

When I join a server there's ALWAYS a "hole" somewhere in the team that needs to be filled. If it's a class you don't know how to play properly - well, you live and learn. =)

From my experience with spreading my gameplay almost evenly across all the classes I have to say that they are ALL fun to play in the right circumstances and if you're concentrating only on 1 or 2 of them then you're missing out on 8/9 or 7/9 of the game. =)
Author:  CherryRed [ 18 Jul 2008, 16:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
as crovax mentioned, this has been raised a few times before and never really settled

my personal opinion would be to just put a limit on all classes, 3 on the smaller servers and 4 on the larger. i doubt anyone would even notice.
Author:  Lim-Dul [ 18 Jul 2008, 16:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
Quote:
i doubt anyone would even notice.
Especially SpA members - har, har. :-D

However, I agree - what I've been saying all the time is that the instances of too many players using one class are VERY rare and all this stuff about "cramping one's style", "ruining the game" and whatnot is totally moot because class limits don't do Jack most of the time and these arguments enter pure speculative territory. I seriously doubt class limits would affect more experienced players at all since they WON'T choose to be a fifth spy if there are already four of them on the team anyway - if they will then they aren't good players in all meanings of that word...

If some people can't be educated normally then they must be educated by force. Also, the argument about leaving the server because a player can't choose his or her favorite class. What about leaving the server because you join a team with 5 snipers and 5 spies and get such an ass-whooppin' that they perhaps won't ever play TF2 again. ;-)
See? You can theorize both ways and the truth of the matter is that the game has been designed in such a way that "exotic" tactics DO NOT WORK. 10 Pyros on a team is never EVER a tactically viable option and is ALWAYS the straight road to losing.
I'd rather play a nice, balanced and dramatic round in a proper team even if I'm stuck in a class I didn't intend to choose in the first place than be completely overwhelmed by the enemy because some people are too stubborn to switch classes.

I'd suggest that we simply try out a stricter class limit e.g. on server 3 like we're doing with all new stuff. If it'll ruin the game like some people say then it'll get thrown out. If it'll basically change nothing then it can stay. We have arrived at a point where theoretical arguments simply don't cut it - we have to test the limits empirically. =)

P.S. I feel that the current limit on Pyros is a bit unfair since too many of them usually don't hurt the team like e.g. too many Snipers or Spies. The post-update craze has settled and thus is not a valid argument anymore. We should either abolish class limits altogether or implement them from top to bottom - that's my opinion, based on the experience that half-assed measures usually bring half-assed results. =)
Author:  [SpA]Blackhawk [ 18 Jul 2008, 16:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
I agree that the pyro limit isn't needed anymore. Playing the last days I could select all the time my beloved pyro if I liked to, but I took medic half the time to go for the team... ha! ...and trying scout! :D
Author:  [SpA]CrackHead [ 19 Jul 2008, 09:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
Gave u an uber 2 bash the pyro :D
Author:  [SpA]Blackhawk [ 19 Jul 2008, 19:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
VillageCrackHead wrote:
Gave u an uber 2 bash the pyro :D
That was such a funny situation as I even killed the guy with only one hit... :4
Author:  Amyl [ 20 Jul 2008, 13:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
[SpA]Lim-Dul wrote:
if you're concentrating only on 1 or 2 of them then you're missing out on 8/9 or 7/9 of the game. =)
Hmm well I play all classes xept scout and heavy, but I do like to concentrate on 2 or 3 classes (in my case pyro, demo and spy). I dont think you miss much of the game then, I miss more of the game when I go a class im shit at and am death half the time :mrgreen:. I usualy have a week that I like to play this more and then a week that I like to play someothing else. Still the pyro is my precious. Also in matches with all the limits, it's good to excell at one class for you cannot switch that easily.
Author:  Lim-Dul [ 20 Jul 2008, 17:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
Quote:
Also in matches with all the limits, it's good to excell at one class for you cannot switch that easily.
That I agree with. =)

However, I think every clan should have some kind of "libero" who, even if he/she isn't the best in any class, can nevertheless fill any empty but needed spot.
Author:  Crovax20 [ 20 Jul 2008, 22:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
[Grr!] Amyl wrote:
[SpA]Lim-Dul wrote:
if you're concentrating only on 1 or 2 of them then you're missing out on 8/9 or 7/9 of the game. =)
Hmm well I play all classes xept scout and heavy, but I do like to concentrate on 2 or 3 classes (in my case pyro, demo and spy). I dont think you miss much of the game then, I miss more of the game when I go a class im shit at and am death half the time :mrgreen:. I usualy have a week that I like to play this more and then a week that I like to play someothing else. Still the pyro is my precious. Also in matches with all the limits, it's good to excell at one class for you cannot switch that easily.
Same here, my rotation used to be pyro, medic, scout. But then Valve released new weapons and stuff... so it switched to Heavy, Spy, Scout. Its nice to vary a between playstyles :)
Author:  [SpA]MrOrange [ 20 Jul 2008, 22:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
I think the class restriction is a good idea. There is a small problem concerning the selection of key classes by people who can't play them very well. It's no real problem if there are three shitty spies on one team (although it could be extremely anoying for the good spies that are raring to play as one), but if you have some bad medics or demomen you're pretty much fucked.

And doesn't the class limit effect sudden death (where everyone is the same class)?
Author:  Lim-Dul [ 20 Jul 2008, 22:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
Quote:
And doesn't the class limit effect sudden death (where everyone is the same class)?
Nope, it doesn't. =)
Author:  DrMcMoist [ 21 Jul 2008, 11:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
[SpA]Lim-Dul wrote:
Quote:
Also in matches with all the limits, it's good to excell at one class for you cannot switch that easily.
That I agree with. =)

However, I think every clan should have some kind of "libero" who, even if he/she isn't the best in any class, can nevertheless fill any empty but needed spot.
I would like to apply for the position of "libero"

DrMcMoist: Professional Loverman and Libero Extraordinaire

That has a nice ring to it, I might print out some business cards...
Author:  [SpA]demm [ 21 Jul 2008, 12:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
The Class limits have been set to 4 for every class, if there are 1-24 players online. For 25 or more players 5 of every class will be possible.

As you can see this is very lenient and should not restrict any normal gameplay.
Author:  Dr Bob [ 21 Jul 2008, 16:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
[SpA]demm wrote:
The Class limits have been set to 4 for every class, if there are 1-24 players online. For 25 or more players 5 of every class will be possible.

As you can see this is very lenient and should not restrict any normal gameplay.
Well thank Satan for that!
Author:  Lim-Dul [ 21 Jul 2008, 16:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
Itsa najs. It will simply prevent extreme-moron cases. =)
Author:  [SpA]Blackhawk [ 21 Jul 2008, 22:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
[SpA]Lim-Dul wrote:
Itsa najs. It will simply prevent extreme-moron cases. =)
I thought SpA-members are excluded from the limit? ;)
Author:  [SpA]demm [ 22 Jul 2008, 08:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
Blackhawk wrote:
[SpA]Lim-Dul wrote:
Itsa najs. It will simply prevent extreme-moron cases. =)
I thought SpA-members are excluded from the limit? ;)
/banned


:demm:
Author:  [SpA]Blackhawk [ 22 Jul 2008, 11:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
Ouch... no... don't hit me with that "lol"-sign! :ugly:
Author:  Dr Bob [ 23 Jul 2008, 18:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Limit Needed
After playing on the server today I've realised that people aren't really taking the team into consideration when it comes to choosing a class. I've played with 4 Scouts, 5 Demos, 4 Snipers and 3 Spies on separate occasions. My original post shows you the perfect class limit and I strongly suggest that the admins and mods take a closer look.
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