SpecialAttack.net :: Annoying class restrictions

The classlimits are there to prevent the most extreme cases, not to limit stuff exactly to how some people think it should be limited to.

[SpA]SaintK wrote:

The classlimits are there to prevent the most extreme cases, not to limit stuff exactly to how some people think it should be limited to.

I want to quote this once again. Up to now, there haven't been that much problems with an engi limit of 5, so why change something that isn't necessary to change?

Sawyer wrote:

I want to quote this once again. Up to now, there haven't been that much problems with an engi limit of 5, so why change something that isn't necessary to change?

Except for ppl camping stage 2 cp 2 on dustbowl with a zillion sentries which would need about 3 simultaneous demo-ubers and the rest of the team right after them. But hey, we all know thats no problem since its easy to arrange people on a public.

Oh wait...

Saint could you please remove the scouts when the server has low pop as well? Its a lot of fun and then someone goes scout and ruins it all.

AKA

Don't limit the engineer on low pop. I love playing it on low pop, the only people that whine are the ones who are playing scout. Lets just remove engineers alltogether then huh. Thats like me saying please remove the demoman because he is unstoppable as engineer when the server pop is low.

I don't.

The only ones who complain about it are truly the scouts. Seriously on a low pop server its so easy to take an engi out. I prefer playing engineer on low pop, because I can spam my little level 1 sentries who are of no threath to anyone but scouts. I love playing engi because I can shotgun the shite out of people.

So not only will I get forced to adhere to classlimits (which are lenient enough atm), but now I won't even be able to play classes I like when the server is on lower population.

Anyone with a couple of braincells can pretty much ignore the engineer if the server is truly low pop. There is not a single place where the sentry can cover the whole bloody map. A soldier, demo, spy will make short work of a engi on low pop as well. Provided the player is not a tard its not hard to take down an engi or his sentry.

Wait a second, I don't really see why it is that hard to take out a sentry, even if there are only 3 or 4 players on each team. I mean, in a lot of cases a demo can take them out, because most spots have leaks. For instance, the intel room on 2fort -> Demo steps in for half a second, fires one or two pipe grenades and steps out, before the turret can shoot him. You know this procedure, and it's still pretty effective on low pop. So, I don't really see, why there should be a general class restriction.

Also, overflows of a specific class lead to imbalance, yes, but to a negative one. Remember the scout update? Everyone was playing scout and the attacking team lost all the time, because 10 scouts aren't supposed to be the ones to take out a sentry nest. From my experience an overflow of any class always inevitably ended with losing.

Uhm - AFAIK SpA members had immunity FOR FREE all the while. ^^

Author:	[SpA]Voegelchen [ 30 Mar 2009, 12:04 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
Remember the scenario when a team hase 1 or 2 bad engies and only one good engi would be left with classlimit 3. It happens quite more often than a good placed sentry farm with 4 or 5 engies.

Author:	Sawyer [ 30 Mar 2009, 15:37 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
[SpA]SaintK wrote: The classlimits are there to prevent the most extreme cases, not to limit stuff exactly to how some people think it should be limited to. I want to quote this once again. Up to now, there haven't been that much problems with an engi limit of 5, so why change something that isn't necessary to change?

Author:	[SpA]SaintK [ 30 Mar 2009, 15:39 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
Just for your info the classlimits stay as they are now. They only get adjusted to a certain limit when a classpack is released (as is at the moment with the scout).

Author:	[SpA]Relentless [ 30 Mar 2009, 15:48 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
Sawyer wrote: [SpA]SaintK wrote: The classlimits are there to prevent the most extreme cases, not to limit stuff exactly to how some people think it should be limited to. I want to quote this once again. Up to now, there haven't been that much problems with an engi limit of 5, so why change something that isn't necessary to change? Except for ppl camping stage 2 cp 2 on dustbowl with a zillion sentries which would need about 3 simultaneous demo-ubers and the rest of the team right after them. But hey, we all know thats no problem since its easy to arrange people on a public. Oh wait...

Author:	Sawyer [ 30 Mar 2009, 16:57 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
[SpA]Relentless wrote: Sawyer wrote: I want to quote this once again. Up to now, there haven't been that much problems with an engi limit of 5, so why change something that isn't necessary to change? Except for ppl camping stage 2 cp 2 on dustbowl with a zillion sentries which would need about 3 simultaneous demo-ubers and the rest of the team right after them. But hey, we all know thats no problem since its easy to arrange people on a public. Oh wait... All due respect, but I think you're a bit exaggerating. Sure, the aforementioned control point is quite hard hard to capture, but usually there aren't more than three engis on RED anyway. And since there is a limited amount of suitable spots for your sentry, a demo can take out more than one in a single uber. Everybody can imagine some nightmare scenario in which 5 engis erect an invincible sentry farm, but tbh, this doesn't happen very often.

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Author:	Bartg [ 30 Mar 2009, 17:32 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
Most of the time maxengis 5 is ok, of course like Relentless said cp2 stage 2 dustbowl is nightmare with 5 enemy engineers, and its no suprise that about 90% of dustbowl stage 2 red team wins

Author:	[SpA]Scatterbrain [ 09 Apr 2009, 16:11 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
I thought it would be better the bump this thread instead of making a new topic quite often in small games - really small, 3vs3 or 4vs4 etc - then it's pretty lame if someone on the other team insists on playing engi and putting up a sentry. usually they take it down if someone complains (and they do complain 99% of the time), although it would be better if they couldn't build it in the first place. basically, I'm asking if there's a way to set the engineer classlimit to 0 before X amount of people are playing on the server (say, more than 6 people)? it just means that small games are a bit more enjoyable, hopefully meaning people aren't leaving the server before it's even filled up

Author:	[SpA]Repel [ 09 Apr 2009, 16:17 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
Yeah, engineers can be a pain when there's only a few people on the server but then there would likely be more complaints if people can't play engineer.

Author:	[SpA]SaintK [ 09 Apr 2009, 16:21 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
I'll add the configs. Poke me if its not done by the end of the weekend.

Author:	Crovax20 [ 09 Apr 2009, 16:47 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
Saint could you please remove the scouts when the server has low pop as well? Its a lot of fun and then someone goes scout and ruins it all. AKA Don't limit the engineer on low pop. I love playing it on low pop, the only people that whine are the ones who are playing scout. Lets just remove engineers alltogether then huh. Thats like me saying please remove the demoman because he is unstoppable as engineer when the server pop is low.

Author:	Crovax20 [ 09 Apr 2009, 17:55 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
I don't. The only ones who complain about it are truly the scouts. Seriously on a low pop server its so easy to take an engi out. I prefer playing engineer on low pop, because I can spam my little level 1 sentries who are of no threath to anyone but scouts. I love playing engi because I can shotgun the shite out of people. So not only will I get forced to adhere to classlimits (which are lenient enough atm), but now I won't even be able to play classes I like when the server is on lower population. Anyone with a couple of braincells can pretty much ignore the engineer if the server is truly low pop. There is not a single place where the sentry can cover the whole bloody map. A soldier, demo, spy will make short work of a engi on low pop as well. Provided the player is not a tard its not hard to take down an engi or his sentry. Anyhow, afaik class limits will stay as they are anyhow. Seeing Saint's original statement, classlimits stay as they are and only get adjusted when a classpack comes out.

Author:	[SpA]Migu [ 09 Apr 2009, 17:58 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
[SpA]Crovax20 wrote: I don't. The only ones who complain about it are truly the scouts. Seriously on a low pop server its so easy to take an engi out. I prefer playing engineer on low pop, because I can spam my little level 1 sentries who are of no threath to anyone but scouts. I love playing engi because I can shotgun the shite out of people. So not only will I get forced to adhere to classlimits (which are lenient enough atm), but now I won't even be able to play classes I like when the server is on lower population. Anyone with a couple of braincells can pretty much ignore the engineer if the server is truly low pop. There is not a single place where the sentry can cover the whole bloody map. A soldier, demo, spy will make short work of a engi on low pop as well. Provided the player is not a tard its not hard to take down an engi or his sentry. Agree with crovax here. I think engie should stay!

Author:	[SpA]Relentless [ 09 Apr 2009, 18:11 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
Do it this way maybe? low pop - general classlimit 1/2 mid pop - general classlimit 2/3 high pop - general classlimit 3/4 any overflow of any class is annoying and imbalances the game. Restricting one class wil imbalance the game even more as another class will get profit from it (limit engis -> scouts get stronger. limit scouts -> demos get stronger. limit demos -> engis get stronger etc.)

Author:	Sawyer [ 09 Apr 2009, 18:53 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
Wait a second, I don't really see why it is that hard to take out a sentry, even if there are only 3 or 4 players on each team. I mean, in a lot of cases a demo can take them out, because most spots have leaks. For instance, the intel room on 2fort -> Demo steps in for half a second, fires one or two pipe grenades and steps out, before the turret can shoot him. You know this procedure, and it's still pretty effective on low pop. So, I don't really see, why there should be a general class restriction. Also, overflows of a specific class lead to imbalance, yes, but to a negative one. Remember the scout update? Everyone was playing scout and the attacking team lost all the time, because 10 scouts aren't supposed to be the ones to take out a sentry nest. From my experience an overflow of any class always inevitably ended with losing.

Author:	[SpA]Tpyo [ 28 Apr 2009, 13:47 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions. My somewhat biased view.
I think 3 engies is too limiting but seeing as people are debating 3 or 5, anyone considered 4? Re: 5 medics - makes sense to me. On attacking maps a rolling uber rush is a reasonable tactic to employ. Re: 3 scouts - Since the scout update the scout has become way overpowered and I see a need for the restriction. It is almost a shame as prior to this, the scout-rush, though rarely successful against a prepared team was always amusing when you managed to pull it off. Ditto on pyro rushes. 5 demomen may be a bit much for some maps (I'm thinking Dustbowl 3 here) unless you're a real Spam-fan but not a problem on the more open maps. 5 spies is a bit much IMO - without a full update the modified super-easy-backstab (next time a spy sudden death round is on, you look how few of the kills are made by a normal stab) makes it overly easy to play them as combat characters at any kind of bottleneck in the map. 3 or 4 would be better. On the otherhand medic and engie are two of my (if not the) most played classes so I'm somewhat biased against spies in general.

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Author:	[SpA]Relentless [ 09 Apr 2009, 19:08 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
Sawyer wrote: Wait a second, I don't really see why it is that hard to take out a sentry, even if there are only 3 or 4 players on each team. I mean, in a lot of cases a demo can take them out, because most spots have leaks. For instance, the intel room on 2fort -> Demo steps in for half a second, fires one or two pipe grenades and steps out, before the turret can shoot him. You know this procedure, and it's still pretty effective on low pop. So, I don't really see, why there should be a general class restriction. Also, overflows of a specific class lead to imbalance, yes, but to a negative one. Remember the scout update? Everyone was playing scout and the attacking team lost all the time, because 10 scouts aren't supposed to be the ones to take out a sentry nest. From my experience an overflow of any class always inevitably ended with losing. We steamrolled the Red Team on Gravel Pit today because we had 4 Medics, and they didnt get a singe cap when they attacked (~10v10)

Author:	[SpA]Scatterbrain [ 09 Apr 2009, 19:12 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
I'm not saying that the sentry is hard to take down - it's pretty easy most of the time - but the fact remains most people tend to complain if one is up; hence why I suggested it here

Author:	Bartg [ 09 Apr 2009, 20:25 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
People complain if there are to many useless engineers - typical situation is when you have 3 engineers and there is one lvl1 teleporter ( or no teleporter at all ) for example, or there are 3 sentries that doesnt cover each other.

Author:	Amyl [ 25 Apr 2009, 01:42 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
not when saint is palying

Author:	[SpA]Minimoose! [ 25 Apr 2009, 09:21 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions

Author:	Amyl [ 25 Apr 2009, 16:47 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions

Author:	[SpA]Baal Kagan [ 25 Apr 2009, 18:59 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
[SpA]Amyl wrote: Image that just made mah day! <3 XD

Author:	[SpA]Minimoose! [ 25 Apr 2009, 21:09 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
Awesome ;D

Author:	Bartg [ 28 Apr 2009, 14:03 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
But know when Code: `New SpA Points feature, class limiter immunity available from the menu` probably all Spa members have sniper immunity bought

Author:	Lim-Dul [ 28 Apr 2009, 15:14 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
Uhm - AFAIK SpA members had immunity FOR FREE all the while. ^^

Author:	Bartg [ 28 Apr 2009, 15:21 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
They had, there were some issues with the plugin ( people were kicked out of class, when immune admin chose limited class ), but I guess it was fixed

Author:	[SpA]SaintK [ 28 Apr 2009, 16:00 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
[SpA]Lim-Dul wrote: Uhm - AFAIK SpA members had immunity FOR FREE all the while. ^^ Negative, this feature needs to be bought aswell by members!

Author:	Lim-Dul [ 28 Apr 2009, 16:46 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
Ah yes - you removed the immunity a while ago, didn't you? I don't really care because I like the class limits but allowing people to circumvent them is a really good idea for SpA points. ^^

Author:	[SpA]MrOrange [ 28 Apr 2009, 18:03 ]
Post subject:	Re: Annoying class restrictions
And since us members don't have to spend precious points on reserverd slots or spray permits we can buy the class restriction immunity more quikly. So it's not as if we've been completely stripped of class restriction immunity benefits .