Imho the KOTH maps seem out of place on the normal "All Maps" servers.
Especially koth_nucleus makes a lot of people leave and I have never played a fun round on that map. It's just too much like deathmatch and very often it turns into spawn camping, since there is not much else you can do on that map.
koth_sawmill is better, but I have to say it is much better suited for arena than anything else.
koth_viaduct is the best KOTH map, but I still don't like it too much.

So I would be in favor of removing all the KOTH maps from the normal servers. If there is demand we could have one KOTH/Arena server, but I doubt it would get filled.

What do you guys think? Is there anyone that actually likes koth_nucleus?

"raises hand"

Burn the fuckers.

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Of all the things I lost, I miss my mind the most.

I hate the one with snow, it's just stupid and one big spam point. I haven't played koth_sawmill. The one with the big thing in the middle with 4 walkways to it isn't bad, but it certainly isn't good

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

People are leaving server when 2fort is being played and it wont make 2fort dissapear ( and obviously rounds arent fun unless youre meleeing ). I like the variety brought by KOTH, and people actually care about capping point

king of the hill sawmill is a great map, I've enjoyed a few good games on their now. nucleus is alright, not too fussed about it, don't think I've played the other one in a serious game. but please keep KOTH sawmill, it's really fun imo

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ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: true genius
ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: doesn't make sense
ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: till you're senseless

i guess im the only one liking all the KOTH maps i guess.. but if the majority votes against it, remove it... but personnally i really like the KOTH gameplay and the maps so far.

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Sebas the avenging zebra's sidekick! <3

The only one I dislike is koth_viaduct, it just seems a bit mindless. The other ones I haven't had a problem with.

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

Imho the KOTH are fine, but if their time/rounds would be reduced so that they would be a nice gameplay snack between the other maps.

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SaintK: I'm completely lost

I had some enjoyable rounds of koth, but mostly it ends up like demm said, SPAM SPAM SPAM, and sawmill makes my fps sad.
With less players it would be perfect, 13v13 is mostly too much.

I like all the KOTH maps in general, but I have to agree to that the viaduct, the snowy one, can be perceived as spammy since it's relatively small to the rather large teams of 13 players we got.
Sawmill is bigger and does not have the same problem, instead many suffer from fps drops due to the weather effects ;P
Nucleus... what can I say.. it's so different, and a bit enjoyable because of it.

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"There is a simple, logical explanation... and there is nothing under the bed.”

Thats main problem with sawmills - they eat fps's for breakfast. There are rain/snow particles tweaks for both sawmill and viaduct, but they don't work with sv_pure other than 0. Nucleus is awesome imho, great spy map

The main problem with sawmill: Too many sawmills in the map rotation.

KOTH Nucleus is what I dont like. When you can snipe out of the spawn door over the hole map, something is wrong.

Thats why you have so many spawn exits

Viaduct is my most hated map however I like nucleus (a lot) and sawmill.

agreed, people leave when 2fort comes on, yukon can just clear the whole server.

i like viaduct, its got a hill, its awesome, the argument for it becoming spammy is frankly BULLSHIT, excuse me but have you played dustbowl? goldrush?

if you are gonna take out koth maps, how about remove ctf maps, howabout remove the CP maps too, wait, while ur at it, remove the territory maps too and the attack/defend maps.

if you dont wanna play those game modes, either join another server, or use ur spa points and pick a map u want to play. i like variation.

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-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

I guess you like it because you can snipe on it without ever being killed?

Am I right brothers! Amen!

The point is that on good maps the spam isn't focused on one point for the whole map, so yeah, frankly the argument is not BULLSHIT. 30 minutes of pressing mouse 1 doesn't seem very fun to me. It's not koth maps in general, it's just a very badly designed koth map. nucleus there are things to do other than go to the point, different routes where you can different things without being a dummy for snipers or to be raped by sentries.

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

The oracle is correct. I have never really had a problem with sawmill, or, viaduct, or nucleus for that matter. I do not like yukon much though. It's a bit big in my expert opinion. Theres another map im not overly fond of, though its name escapes me at present.

Tactics for viaduct, don't thank me, thank god for giving me such a brilliant analytical brain. I forgot to put sniper tactics in for the ones who want to get free kills

I like variation (hence my new thread), but I just don't like crap maps Keep nucleus and sawmill, dey be shackalackin.

Spam is a massive problem on viaduct, say you have 13 players on each team, you can assume at least 8 of them will be either medics, soldiers, demo's or heavies, you have 16 players focusing on one choke point and that doesn't account for the engineers and snipers. It's just stupid. Also the snipers get a free ride because no one has time to focus one them.

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

nucleus is a great map great fun

I have stopped playing TF2 at the moment and part of the reason is these bloody maps being on every time I seem to turn the game on...they look pretty but they are in no way fun to play, my opinion obviously

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You'll Feel A Little Prick

a) that's rich coming from someone who wears a turtle shell, wooden door, razorback, you royal pansey!

b) im getting spys up my ass all the time on viaduct, not alot of them succeed but still (see point below)
c) your team has obviously got shit spies. (the spy is designed as a counter balance to the sniper, FYI)

I swear the diagram you drew looks like 2fort also. (yet that map is not being removed from the lineup)

Can someone please fetch a new tampon for mini please. But seriously, what is the point complaining about it, just don't play the frikin map, I hate dustbowl (spammy dull nightmare that it is), and i do moan about it but i haven't asked for it to be removed all together in some pointless thread.

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-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

Yes remove it, KOTH on main server makes a sad unity

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We Shall Not Be Moved!

This thread was just so we can get a feeling of how the community feels about KOTH. It's not pointless at all, because as it turns out there is a wide range of opinions.

Of course if you like those maps or not entirely depends on which class you play the most. Viaduct and Nucleus are just sniper paradise. On the other hand Viaduct isn't too great for a scout, since there is only one choke point that gets spammed all the time, with no real alternative route to flank, as opposed to Nucleus, where the whole level is an alternative route
For a heavy, Nucleus and Sawmill are really good maps as long as you stay off the point. On Viaduct though, you can't do anything else than stand somewhere around the point if you want to kill someone, but you can get sniped very easily.

So the reason I don't like Nucleus and Sawmill is just that they don't have any sense of team play at all. Most of the time somebody ninja caps the point, then everybody pulls back, so you don't get spammed/sniped. Then somebody from the other team ninja caps. This cycle is repeated a few times till the time runs out. There was never a real team effort required.
Of course somebody who plays sniper or spy doesn't care about that kind of teamplay too much, but for the other classes it just makes the game more enjoyable.
Viaduct can have some of those "teamplay moments", but most of the time it's just spam. It's like taking the worst part of goldrush/dustbowl and centering the whole game around it.

i hate snipers and spies like that. im all about teamplay, i look out for people, not just camp in a corner wearing a frikin tortoise!

i've been part of some really good team games, on all the koth maps and its been very enjoyable, and i rarely go sniper on nucleus or sawmill, cause its more fun to get up and personal and become king-of-the-hill, like the same rush you get when you are the bag carrier.

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-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

Snipers with ironing board on their back are irritating, cause ambassador is to shitty to use it just on snipers, so I appreciate you letting me stab your bottom <3

Amen!

I like the KOTH maps in principle but agree with Blackhawk's statement. Sawmill is by far the best IMO but people do complain about the FPS drop. The smaller maps tend to get very one sided (and rapidly become no fun for the losing team). "Spawn camping" on Nucleus is often just a side effect of running round the ring (I tend to do laps as a pyro/scout) which is pretty essential if you don't want to be sniper fodder running through the centre. Sitting by the spawn exit once everyone is dead is usually a hiding to nothing as there are plenty of exits and people shoot from within the spawn door where they can run back to grab health. Meanwhile, I think it'd be a shame to lose them but reducing the time/#wins (1 win, 10 mins?) for the KoTH maps could solve the problem, keeping them as a palate cleanser, not a grind.

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Dammit! My computer was set to U.S. English.
I tried to save a word document but accidentally blew it up instead.

sounds like a smart compromise.

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-"You've really worked out your banter, haven't you?"
-"No, not really. This is a different thing, it's spontaneous and it's called wit."

I didn't start the thread, if you're going to use childish insults then it just makes your argument look worse than it already is

The razorback is a valid defense, i can defend myself well enough without the SMG so whats the point in using it? Spies hardly ever get a chance to kill the snipers because of the engineers/the rest of the team are spamming the choke point so much.

The map is just bad, it's nothing to do with koth in general.

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig

dude.

jarate.

...anyway, played a serious business round of viaduct and it was pretty awful. I would be happy to see that one go (but maybe not on the presents server), but keep the other two, especially sawmill. I love that map :<

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ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: true genius
ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: doesn't make sense
ュ~ちゃんgamer.jp Pinky: till you're senseless

Meh, jarate hardly ever works for me, everyone just legs it as soon as they see you, or just focus all their fire onto you (which is what I do when I see someone with it).

Also spies hardly ever try and through active choke points, they go through the least active route, on viaduct there is one route which turns into one big fat spamming pit of spammyness.

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a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig